Steve Bruce

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

Never really held the "most expensive squad ever assembled" argument with much weight, because football money is only up (quickly).  So comparing money today to money pre-neymar is void really.

Compared to other clubs we spent a lot, although Newcastle when they came down had a huge wage bill.

But that's what happens when teams come down from the prem, especially clubs like ours with large fan bases and infrastructure.

We were never going to be comparable to Rotherham or Preston.

The football wasnt great, but he definitely lifted us up from our lowest ebb in 10 years.  

The last few games before his sacking were very bad and the squad balance was criminal, hence why he was sacked.

Of course - this is true, but how difficult a task was this in reality - given we were in a lower standard of football and a whole lot more resource available  compared to the majority of competitors?

[kurtsimonw]

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

Never really held the "most expensive squad ever assembled" argument with much weight, because football money is only up (quickly).  So comparing money today to money pre-neymar is void really.

Compared to other clubs we spent a lot, although Newcastle when they came down had a huge wage bill.

But that's what happens when teams come down from the prem, especially clubs like ours with large fan bases and infrastructure.

We were never going to be comparable to Rotherham or Preston.

The football wasnt great, but he definitely lifted us up from our lowest ebb in 10 years.  

The last few games before his sacking were very bad and the squad balance was criminal, hence why he was sacked.

It's a complete nonsense argument anyway. Why should Bruce be held accountable for the poor spending of previous managers?

Under Bruce, our net spend was a £15m profit in terms of transfers. People will argue about wages and loans, but that's just part of the Championship. Mings didn't come and play for us out of pity, we wouldn't have gone up with paying Tammy's wages for all those goals, or El Ghazi's goal in the final, etc.

[bannedfromHandV]

32 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

It's a complete nonsense argument anyway. Why should Bruce be held accountable for the poor spending of previous managers?

Under Bruce, our net spend was a £15m profit in terms of transfers. People will argue about wages and loans, but that's just part of the Championship. Mings didn't come and play for us out of pity, we wouldn't have gone up with paying Tammy's wages for all those goals, or El Ghazi's goal in the final, etc.

Exactly, and how much of that high wage bill was Bruce responsible for? Agbonlahor, McCormack, Richards - 3 high earners that were essentially unavailable to play for varying reasons.

[Mark Albrighton]

I don’t think people would go on about wages or how much Hogan cost, or buying Bree and not playing him (well probably not as much) if Bruce hadn’t regularly gone on about having to “box clever” with the finances and the general hard luck stories.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Don't really get the hate. 

Came in at the clubs lowest point for 4 decades. He had a bunch of players who clearly didn't want to be at the club, had to try and balance the books a bit and took us to a playoff final. 

Without Bruce and the job he did, the only way out of the division would've been doing a Sunderland. There's no way we'd be a Premier League club now IMO. 

Just because someone else came in and did a better job, doesn't make the job he did irrelevant or bad. 

very well put.....perspective at last.

[useless]

Not sure you can say it was the club's lowest point in four decades, we'd just had a takeover in the summer, and spent a lot of money, so there was a massive feel good factor surrounding the club, and even though we'd had a bad start to the season in terms of results we'd actually been playing okay and weren't too far off top six. Also all this talk of having to balance the books, or 'beg steal and borrow' as Bruce puts it, is nonesense, in his first transfer window he was allowed to sign Hourihane, Lansbury, and Hogan, all three of whom were some of the best performers in the division at the time, then the following summer he brought in Snodgrass, Terry, Whelan, Elmohamady, Onomah, and Sam Johnstone, all Premier league players, followd by Grabban in January, and then last summer whilst he was still at the club we signed McGinn, Abraham, El Ghazi, and Bolasie, and managed to keep Grealish, despite Tottenham offering £25m for him. What stopped us doing a Sunderland was the money we spent, not Steve Bruce.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Dave J said:

Of course - this is true, but how difficult a task was this in reality - given we were in a lower standard of football and a whole lot more resource available  compared to the majority of competitors?

I think he has just explained his view on that Dave......SB did his best, ultimately it wasn't quite good enough, just like a horse losing out to another by a nose.....The loser still ran a good race.

In a converse situation, Norwich went up with mainly free transfers, so why does Steve Gibson bellyache about teams spending money.....Money/Resources is a bit of a cop out in some ways, not to be dismissed entirely, but only part of the success equation.....you then have to buy the right players and blend them.....Liverpool is another good example, how buying the right players (irrespective of the cost), improves the team

The folk that defend Steve Bruce do see the flaws that seem to vex you and others, but we see and report on the good bits too......I am not a betting man, but I suspect Dean Smith would agree with us.He too would respect the good bits Steve managed to do.

If someone just doesn't like him, no one is going to change that, If someone doesn't like his style of football, like me, that won't change.....but 24 wins in a season which ever piece of mitigation you want to sling at it, is something to be pleased with.....I would be, if I presided over 24 wins......It never got the coveted prize and that was disappointing but probably a blessing in disguise in all honesty.....but to give him no credit for partly rebuilding our reputation, No,Not for me, that's unfair in my book.

PS As for the argument about slagging off the fans, my understanding it was only a small section,He referenced,who was having a pop at him.... not the entire fan base......and as you well know Dave, fans of any club can have very different views to each other, such is varying personalities being as they are.

 

 

[kurtsimonw]

8 minutes ago, useless said:

Not sure you can say it was the club's lowest point in four decades

We were near the bottom of the second tier of English football all. A place we hadn't been for nearly four decades. So it was literally our lowest point in four decades. 

I don't agree that we had to beg steal and borrow, but the fact is he did a really good job in brining in money, whilst still putting out a competitive team. 

I think his tactics were poor and that he didn't get the best out of said team, but he did a good job assembling a squad that ultimately went up. When you consider the absolute monstrosity of a side that he took over, even more so. 

[useless]

I don't think it was a bad team at all, it would have been one of the best in the division, indeed many of them turned out to be better players for Bruce than the ones he actually signed. Central midfield was pretty weak, but as I say he was allowed to rectify this in January signing Hourihane, Lansbury and Bjarnason. I think the best thing Bruce did for us was probably moving Grealish from the wing to a more central position.

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, useless said:

Not sure you can say it was the club's lowest point in four decades, we'd just had a takeover in the summer, and spent a lot of money, so there was a massive feel good factor surrounding the club, and even though we'd had a bad start to the season in terms of results we'd actually been playing okay and weren't too far off top six. Also all this talk of having to balance the books, or 'beg steal and borrow' as Bruce puts it, is nonesense, in his first transfer window he was allowed to sign Hourihane, Lansbury, and Hogan, all three of whom were some of the best performers in the division at the time, then the following summer he brought in Snodgrass, Terry, Whelan, Elmohamady, Onomah, and Sam Johnstone, all Premier league players, followd by Grabban in January, and then last summer whilst he was still at the club we signed McGinn, Abraham, El Ghazi, and Bolasie, and managed to keep Grealish, despite Tottenham offering £25m for him. What stopped us doing a Sunderland was the money we spent, not Steve Bruce.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.....seems like speculation to me.

I too didn't like the football under Steve Bruce and I don't think he can be compared with Dean Smith in terms of training ground prowess.....I don't think Steve can improve the individual performance of players like Dean can, but there are always exceptions, i am talking generally speaking......So far, Dean has shown to be far more enterprising than Steve, but I would suspect he would be happy with some of his signings.....There is more than one element to a football manager, some are good at some things and not so good at others, but it doesn't necessarily make them **** at everything.

However, Steve Bruce has a fair record in the transfer market....sure he signs some duffers like all managers....but i find it particularly interesting How both managers can't get a tune out of Scott Hogan when Dean did at his previous club....could it be the player himself? Ross McCormack was a classic case of a lack of due diligence and research, that could relate to more than just the manager as with Richards.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by TRO

[Mark Albrighton]

54 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

We were near the bottom of the second tier of English football all. A place we hadn't been for nearly four decades. So it was literally our lowest point in four decades. 

I don't agree that we had to beg steal and borrow, but the fact is he did a really good job in brining in money, whilst still putting out a competitive team. 

I think his tactics were poor and that he didn't get the best out of said team, but he did a good job assembling a squad that ultimately went up. When you consider the absolute monstrosity of a side that he took over, even more so. 

Things is, was it an “absolute monstrosity” of a side he took over?

Before the start of last season, Bruce gave an interview when the squad were abroad training. I thought he spoke fairly well and was fairly realistic in how he saw things. He also said something along the lines of how he’d love to be in a position where he could keep Chester, Grealish and Kodjia but was facing the reality that he couldn’t. Those were the three he highlighted. Interesting they were three players that were already at the club, he didn’t highlight any of his signings. It suggests to me that the squad wasn’t that bad when he took over. Yes, there were notable gaps, which he filled admirably with the likes of Hourihane and Elmo, but it also wasn’t a “monstrosity” either.

As for the lowest ebb in the past 40 years. I would say following the play off defeat when we looked like going under was far worse than the final weeks of RDM. I’d even say on a personal level that the terrible run we had in Bruce’s first January, possibly the lowlight being played off the park by Brentford, was a lower point for me than RDM’s reign (terrible as that was).

That is not me saying RDM was better, of course he wasn’t. But talking from a “lowest point” perspective, those two spring to mind more than the opening 12 games of the 16/17 season.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Shropshire Lad

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Steve Bruce signed McGinn don't forget that.

Scott Hogan, Nyland and Lansbury too

[kurtsimonw]

47 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said:

Things is, was it an “absolute monstrosity” of a side he took over?

It wasn't far off though, was it? His squad building was good IMO.

Gollini - Shell-shocked after mistakes in his first few starts. Never recovered.
Johnstone - Bought in a solid replacement who was one of the league's best.

Richards - This was our right back for Wolves. This.
Hutton - Serviceable right back this level.
Bree - Clearly not good enough. Bought a dud here.
Elmo - After the Bree mistake, bought in Elmo who was a big part of the promotion team.

Cissokho - Just nowhere near good enough.
Amavi - Put a string of performances together worse than probably any player in our history, including Richards/Lescott. Absolute joke of a professional.
Taylor - Solid performer at this level. Instant improvement over Amavi.

Elphick - Not good enough
Terry - Enough said really.

Westwood - Poor.
Bacuna - Bad
Gardner - Awful
Tshibola - Worst
McGinn - Amazing - Massive part of promotion
Hourihane - Very good, if inconsistent - Massive part of promotion
Lansbury - Miss, but mostly down to injuries
Whelan - Big part of the promotion, if not always consistent.

Ayew - Great individual, very hit and miss and didn't work for the team.
Snodgrass - Hugely important, worked hard and was a big part of our side
El Ghazi - Couldn't get Snoddy back, and ended up with this Playoff Final scorer

McCormack - Just a waste.
Gestede - Not really good enough.
Hogan - A waste, black mark for Bruce
Grabban - Big part of the playoff run last season
Abraham - Huge part of the promotion

To say our side was anywhere near decent would just be wrong. Bruce took a lot of rubbish or players who didn't want to be here, and helped turn us around, without spending fortunes. Hogan will always be a stick used to beat him with, but overall he turned the squad around massively. He did leave a big whole in defense, no doubt about it. Though Chester and Tuanzebe were still here, but he didn't utilise the squad properly

Overall he took a £50m+ pile of crap, and turned it in to a decent squad. A squad that was the basis of promotion.


 

Edited June 15, 2019 by kurtsimonw

[TRO]

when this board is popular.....you know the transfer front is quiet.

[Mark Albrighton]

4 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

Amavi - Put a string of performances together worse than probably any player in our history, including Richards/Lescott. Absolute joke of a professional.
 

Well I could discuss the rest of the post further, but this last bit has completely thrown me. 

Jordan Amavi being lumped in with and being described as being worse Richards and Lescott? 

[kurtsimonw]

9 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said:

Well I could discuss the rest of the post further, but this last bit has completely thrown me. 

Jordan Amavi being lumped in with and being described as being worse Richards and Lescott? 

His performances at left back for the 16/17 season were beyond embarrassing. He was routinely getting ripped to shreds, like Richards and Lescott. They were beyond awful, but they were beyond awful in the Premier League. Amavi was making right wingers of Barnsley and Reading look like Ronaldo.

Just look at the differences in results and the amount we conceded when Taylor came in and played at left back. The difference is quite ridiculous, it's barely believable.

[Zatman]

Gollini never recovered yet will play Champions League next season

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think he has just explained his view on that Dave......SB did his best, ultimately it wasn't quite good enough, just like a horse losing out to another by a nose.....The loser still ran a good race.

In a converse situation, Norwich went up with mainly free transfers, so why does Steve Gibson bellyache about teams spending money.....Money/Resources is a bit of a cop out in some ways, not to be dismissed entirely, but only part of the success equation.....you then have to buy the right players and blend them.....Liverpool is another good example, how buying the right players (irrespective of the cost), improves the team

The folk that defend Steve Bruce do see the flaws that seem to vex you and others, but we see and report on the good bits too......I am not a betting man, but I suspect Dean Smith would agree with us.He too would respect the good bits Steve managed to do.

If someone just doesn't like him, no one is going to change that, If someone doesn't like his style of football, like me, that won't change.....but 24 wins in a season which ever piece of mitigation you want to sling at it, is something to be pleased with.....I would be, if I presided over 24 wins......It never got the coveted prize and that was disappointing but probably a blessing in disguise in all honesty.....but to give him no credit for partly rebuilding our reputation, No,Not for me, that's unfair in my book.

PS As for the argument about slagging off the fans, my understanding it was only a small section,He referenced,who was having a pop at him.... not the entire fan base......and as you well know Dave, fans of any club can have very different views to each other, such is varying personalities being as they are.

 

 

TRO - as always you make some very measured and reasonable points - although in reading your post the word average jumps out at me - which is what I have said I believe him to be all along.

Yes he did some good things and YES he did some bad  things = average to me.

I will never accept having a pop at your own fans through the media TRO - this crosses a line for me.

You simply don't bite the hand that feeds. Imo

[kurtsimonw]

4 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Gollini never recovered yet will play Champions League next season

He didn't recover for us. Sometimes a change of scenery is what a player needs. Do you genuinely think he was better for us than Johnstone, and that we should've stuck with him?

[Mark Albrighton]

34 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

It wasn't far off though, was it? His squad building was good IMO.

Gollini - Shell-shocked after mistakes in his first few starts. Never recovered.
Johnstone - Bought in a solid replacement who was one of the league's best.

Richards - This was our right back for Wolves. This.
Hutton - Serviceable right back this level.
Bree - Clearly not good enough. Bought a dud here.
Elmo - After the Bree mistake, bought in Elmo who was a big part of the promotion team.

Cissokho - Just nowhere near good enough.
Amavi - Put a string of performances together worse than probably any player in our history, including Richards/Lescott. Absolute joke of a professional.
Taylor - Solid performer at this level. Instant improvement over Amavi.

Elphick - Not good enough
Terry - Enough said really.

Westwood - Poor.
Bacuna - Bad
Gardner - Awful
Tshibola - Worst
McGinn - Amazing - Massive part of promotion
Hourihane - Very good, if inconsistent - Massive part of promotion
Lansbury - Miss, but mostly down to injuries
Whelan - Big part of the promotion, if not always consistent.

Ayew - Great individual, very hit and miss and didn't work for the team.
Snodgrass - Hugely important, worked hard and was a big part of our side
El Ghazi - Couldn't get Snoddy back, and ended up with this Playoff Final scorer

McCormack - Just a waste.
Gestede - Not really good enough.
Hogan - A waste, black mark for Bruce
Grabban - Big part of the playoff run last season
Abraham - Huge part of the promotion

To say our side was anywhere near decent would just be wrong. Bruce took a lot of rubbish or players who didn't want to be here, and helped turn us around, without spending fortunes. Hogan will always be a stick used to beat him with, but overall he turned the squad around massively. He did leave a big whole in defense, no doubt about it. Though Chester and Tuanzebe were still here, but he didn't utilise the squad properly

Overall he took a £50m+ pile of crap, and turned it in to a decent squad. A squad that was the basis of promotion.


 

Why haven’t you included Kodjia, Grealish, Chester, Baker, Jedinak or Adomah in your squad summing up? They were all players that Bruce called on at various points. All good players that he had at his disposal.

You’ve otherwise summed up reasonably well, I don’t agree with it completely but it’s more or less on the money. I think Elphick proved he could step up and play for us, I think Westwood would be an ok squad player for us, Ayew too. I was always supportive of Gollini and wouldn’t have minded seeing him being given more time, but I get why he was ditched.

But it’s not an accurate summing up when you miss out half a dozen players, two of which were our top goal scorers in the first two seasons, another was our stalwart captain for most of our time here, one trusty defender, one useful defensive midfielder (and occasional defender) and the other literally our best player.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Shropshire Lad