Steve Bruce

[Dave J]

9 minutes ago, Xela said:

So you are saying that yesterdays game and the 5-0 against Bristol City was turgid? 'I'll have to respectfully disagree there Dave. some games have been bad but to dismiss everything as a shit show is wrong (IMO) 

As for Lambert, he was very good at Norwich. He started ok at Villa but by the end it was eye bleedingly bad. It was so bad Sherwood had to save the day! 

Yesterday did not excite me no - it was more about get the job done.

As for Lambert I'm afraid Lerner imo ruined him and as I have said before I am not sure he will recover from his Villa experience.

As for Bruce we will have to agree to disagree for me Dull is in his DNA :-))

[DCJonah]

29 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Yesterday did not excite me no - it was more about get the job done.

As for Lambert I'm afraid Lerner imo ruined him and as I have said before I am not sure he will recover from his Villa experience.

As for Bruce we will have to agree to disagree for me Dull is in his DNA :-))

Think thats a cop out for a shit manager. 

There are games under bruce where we are awful, not a patch on the stuff lambert used to have us playing though.

[Dave J]

22 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Think thats a cop out for a shit manager. 

There are games under bruce where we are awful, not a patch on the stuff lambert used to have us playing though.

Well you explain why a manager who created an exciting team with a gung ho attitude to football - rocks up at villa park and is expected to work with one arm shoved up his back ? I'm happy to repeat I can't recall a Bruce team exciting me the way Lambert's Norwich did - we all wanted him don't forget- remember Norwich away at the end of McLeish's reign 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

48 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Think thats a cop out for a shit manager. 

There are games under bruce where we are awful, not a patch on the stuff lambert used to have us playing though.

Can't agree with this, Lambert was literally working with the bare minimum towards the end, only Trumped by Remi Garde.

People also forget he is a student of German football.

If he had stayed with Norwich, you could almost argue he could have had a completely different career trajectory.

Not sure if some of you saw the articles about players he was actually after, compared to the players he got.

We have ruined many a player, and manager. lol

I wasn't the largest fan of Lambert either,

Edited January 14, 2018 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't agree with this, Lambert was literally working with the bare minimum towards the end, only Trumped by Remi Garde.

People also forget he is a student of German football.

If he had stayed with Norwich, you could almost argue he could have had a completely different career trajectory.

Not sure if some of you saw the articles about players he was actually after, compared to the players he got.

We have ruined many a player, and manager. lol

I wasn't the largest fan of Lambert either,

In all seriousness.....We see what happens on matchday which is, in the whole scheme of things, a small , (but very important) window, we don't see the bigger picture.

You would need to see the big picture to get a more accurate assessment of a manager.

[Vive_La_Villa]

8 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't agree with this, Lambert was literally working with the bare minimum towards the end, only Trumped by Remi Garde.

People also forget he is a student of German football.

If he had stayed with Norwich, you could almost argue he could have had a completely different career trajectory.

Not sure if some of you saw the articles about players he was actually after, compared to the players he got.

We have ruined many a player, and manager. lol

I wasn't the largest fan of Lambert either,

The irony is Lambert did ok in the transfer market consider the funds he had. Then when the club finally decided to reinvest and spend money earned from sales. Lambert was no longer the manager.

Had Lambert been given money to spend I think he would have done an ok job. In the season he got sacked he had given up. Totally worn down. 

Keeping it on topic. The advantage of Bruce as manager seems to be his contacts and players wanting to sign for him. Terry, Johnstone, Snodgrass and Elmo are down to Bruce. 

[DCJonah]

29 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Well you explain why a manager who created an exciting team with a gung ho attitude to football - rocks up at villa park and is expected to work with one arm shoved up his back ? I'm happy to repeat I can't recall a Bruce team exciting me the way Lambert's Norwich did - we all wanted him don't forget- remember Norwich away at the end of McLeish's reign 

You were excited by norwich? 

Plenty of poor managers have had decent spells at one club. Yes he had restrictions but he was awful and continued to be awful after us

[DCJonah]

13 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't agree with this, Lambert was literally working with the bare minimum towards the end, only Trumped by Remi Garde.

People also forget he is a student of German football.

If he had stayed with Norwich, you could almost argue he could have had a completely different career trajectory.

Not sure if some of you saw the articles about players he was actually after, compared to the players he got.

We have ruined many a player, and manager. lol

I wasn't the largest fan of Lambert either,

Does this really mean anything? 

I just disagree we somehow ruined him. He was here for 2 and a half years. If you can't recover from that then surely that is a big weakness. 

Getting back on topic, the stuff this season is mainly better than anything lambert used to produce. 

[Dave J]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

You were excited by norwich? 

Plenty of poor managers have had decent spells at one club. Yes he had restrictions but he was awful and continued to be awful after us

Well if you don't think his Norwich team was exciting then this conversation is done with all due respect to you. They were one of the most entertaining teams around in their consecutive promotion seasons.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

8 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Does this really mean anything? 

I just disagree we somehow ruined him. He was here for 2 and a half years. If you can't recover from that then surely that is a big weakness. 

Getting back on topic, the stuff this season is mainly better than anything lambert used to produce. 

Nothing is set in stone obviously.

My argument is just that, after certain managers/players have a horrid time with us, due to a multitude of variables.

Remi for instance, was highly rated before he came to us.

Their stock falls, then for the most part any future opportunities they may get will be with teams with lesser resources, etc which might negate their ability.

Plummeting their stock even further.

It is almost like Pro boxing, certain fighters will choose easier challenges, raising their stock until the get a large opportunity.

Now if the Championship fight comes too soon in their careers and they get slaughtered, it could cause a downward trajectory in rep, confidence, opportunities etc.

For instance, if Wagner Love had jumped ship to another club after Huddersfields great season, and went to a big club then failed miserably, his stock would have plummeted.

Edited January 14, 2018 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Xela]

23 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't agree with this, Lambert was literally working with the bare minimum towards the end, only Trumped by Remi Garde.

Doesn't excuse the shit football though. Sherwood came in and instantly got us playing far better and more attacking. 

Lambert had simply lost the plot at that point.. he still had good players that to his credit he had purchased, but he had no idea how to use them. The 'football' played made me hate our team for a while. 

[DCJonah]

8 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Well if you don't think his Norwich team was exciting then this conversation is done with all due respect to you. They were one of the most entertaining teams around in their consecutive promotion seasons.

I just didn't watch Norwich as they got promoted. There's been a few teams that have excited me. Arsenal some years, barca, madrid and now man city. Lambert's norwich were never one of them. If you watched them enough to get excited fair enough. 

 

[srsmithusa]

I think we are hilarious.  The excuses we will allow for some but not for others is truly fickle.  I include myself in that.  I don’t think players needing time to settle and injuries are especially good excuses.  Some do.   I do think that being undermined by a neglectful owner or given zero resources to make NEEDED improvements are VERY good excuses, some don’t.  

To stay a bit more on topic   Delighted that we have three league wins in a row.  long may the wins continue.  Even if I think a different approach would have had us playing better and winning more, much sooner.   While it’s working, we can’t fire him. The only thing that matters is promotion.  While it’s working, the safest plan is to let it work. 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I think we are hilarious.  The excuses we will allow for some but not for others is truly fickle.  I include myself in that.  I don’t think players needing time to settle and injuries are especially good excuses.  Some do.   I do think that being undermined by a neglectful owner or given zero resources to make NEEDED improvements are VERY good excuses, some don’t.  

To stay a bit more on topic   Delighted that we have three league wins in a row.  long may the wins continue.  Even if I think a different approach would have had us playing better and winning more, much sooner.   While it’s working, we can’t fire him. The only thing that matters is promotion.  While it’s working, the safest plan is to let it work. 

but isn't an excuse a reason a critic has no time for or don't accept?

one mans reason is another mans excuse or woman.

Edited January 14, 2018 by TRO

[romavillan]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

Think thats a cop out for a shit manager. 

There are games under bruce where we are awful, not a patch on the stuff lambert used to have us playing though.

Nah, I'm not buying that, he kept us up in miracle fashion playing 3 up front with Weimann, Gabby and Benteke and we looked really good for the last stretch of the season. Playing attacking football, optimism was high for his second season. He wasn't backed, he started trying not to lose after injuries and a bad start, then it was downhill from there. It was more important not to lose than try to win and then we know the rest.

Had Lambert been backed properly that first summer, then who knows.

On topic, the criticism of Bruce is fair IMO, he's had ages, we've had one great run where we didn't play well but got the results we needed after a terrible start. Then we had a shite run in December and then played a blinder against Bristol City, and got a great result yesterday. Other results have also gone our way. Now we are in a good position to kick on but the problem with Bruce is we have never seen consistent good football, we've hardly ever seen a decent 90 minutes WITH THE BALL. Without the ball we look great to be fair. That's where the criticisms come in, but as long as the results are good enough to get second by the end of the season you have to say job well done, even if we stink in possession.

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, romavillan said:

Nah, I'm not buying that, he kept us up in miracle fashion playing 3 up front with Weimann, Gabby and Benteke and we looked really good for the last stretch of the season. Playing attacking football, optimism was high for his second season. He wasn't backed, he started trying not to lose after injuries and a bad start, then it was downhill from there. It was more important not to lose than try to win and then we know the rest.

Had Lambert been backed properly that first summer, then who knows.

On topic, the criticism of Bruce is fair IMO, he's had ages, we've had one great run where we didn't play well but got the results we needed after a terrible start. Then we had a shite run in December and then played a blinder against Bristol City, and got a great result yesterday. Other results have also gone our way. Now we are in a good position to kick on but the problem with Bruce is we have never seen consistent good football, we've hardly ever seen a decent 90 minutes WITH THE BALL. Without the ball we look great to be fair. That's where the criticisms come in, but as long as the results are good enough to get second by the end of the season you have to say job well done, even if we stink in possession.

Couldn't disagree more. It wasn't a miracle, we were down there in trouble because of the awful impact he had on us. 

Look where he is, out of work after failing at wolves and blackburn and that's lerners fault? No chance. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Nah, I'm not buying that, he kept us up in miracle fashion playing 3 up front with Weimann, Gabby and Benteke and we looked really good for the last stretch of the season. Playing attacking football, optimism was high for his second season. He wasn't backed, he started trying not to lose after injuries and a bad start, then it was downhill from there. It was more important not to lose than try to win and then we know the rest.

Had Lambert been backed properly that first summer, then who knows.

On topic, the criticism of Bruce is fair IMO, he's had ages, we've had one great run where we didn't play well but got the results we needed after a terrible start. Then we had a shite run in December and then played a blinder against Bristol City, and got a great result yesterday. Other results have also gone our way. Now we are in a good position to kick on but the problem with Bruce is we have never seen consistent good football, we've hardly ever seen a decent 90 minutes WITH THE BALL. Without the ball we look great to be fair. That's where the criticisms come in, but as long as the results are good enough to get second by the end of the season you have to say job well done, even if we stink in possession.

To be fair you won't see a good 90 minutes with the ball from any team in the country bar  Man City. 

But I know where you are coming from. 

[TRO]

53 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Nah, I'm not buying that, he kept us up in miracle fashion playing 3 up front with Weimann, Gabby and Benteke and we looked really good for the last stretch of the season. Playing attacking football, optimism was high for his second season. He wasn't backed, he started trying not to lose after injuries and a bad start, then it was downhill from there. It was more important not to lose than try to win and then we know the rest.

Had Lambert been backed properly that first summer, then who knows.

On topic, the criticism of Bruce is fair IMO, he's had ages, we've had one great run where we didn't play well but got the results we needed after a terrible start. Then we had a shite run in December and then played a blinder against Bristol City, and got a great result yesterday. Other results have also gone our way. Now we are in a good position to kick on but the problem with Bruce is we have never seen consistent good football, we've hardly ever seen a decent 90 minutes WITH THE BALL. Without the ball we look great to be fair. That's where the criticisms come in, but as long as the results are good enough to get second by the end of the season you have to say job well done, even if we stink in possession.

On the face of it we do play cautious football most of the time, but equally gungo football where containment is low priority and you can concede as quick as you score can be equally tedious and frustrating IMO

Let me take you back in time.....

Its not the same but similar, I heard critics of our game back in 1980-82......Oh Ipswich are the better footballing side, so are Liverpool and Man U, But Ipswich have beaten Villa home and away and in the cup at VP.....Ipswich was the bees knees and they had the silkier skills with Thyssen and Arnesen pulling the strings, with Paul Mariner and Eric Gates finishing things off for Fun.

Ron used to be known as 110% Ron.....Thats all he talks about work rate, work rate ,work rate..Fact.....but he did loads of other things too, but that was uninteresting to critics.

We had to rely on the Bill Shankly's to come to the rescue with comments like......" Any team that wins 26 games in this league deserves the title......Oh! but not the purists ( and many from Fleet St).....No ,No..we was workmanlike, sure we was, we had method....but that was not enough to the critics.

We won the European cup....but we was lucky......No mention of the best team in Europe, Bayern, with Household names like Paul Breitner, Karl Heinz Rummenigge, Dieter Hoeness or Klaus Augenthaler,...... no mention of them having a responsibility to win and they did everything they could to beat us.....but we won....."why's that then"?.....because the team you are quick to dismiss are not bad either, but in a less eye catching way.....media coverage half hour on Central, with a respectful piece from Cloughie, oh all the football people knew what we had done.....but not the purists.

I am in no way comparing our ability now with that team then.....but the principles and parallels remain similar and they have ringing endorsements to me.

We all want eye catching football with passes going where we want, running off the ball with intelligence and timing like a trapeze artist.....but many many factors can inhibit that non less than the opposition, there are 22 players during a game not 11

I see what fans see who are frustrated with our game and have to admit at times, I get frustrated too, but I have to remind myself of the main objective........... the win.

I do get Steve Bruce and what he is doing, some of the stuff is legitimate critique, some of it is just blaming him for every frustration on display as if the players are responsible for nothing......I know social media is a lot to do with it ,but really,many  other managers of ours have not had this level of criticism to deal with.

I heard Michael Gray say on football on 5 ......."Villa are a very good team".......Its took a bit of time to get the last bit, but we are getting there.

Good on yer mate

Edited January 14, 2018 by TRO

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

but isn't an excuse a reason a critic has no time for or don't accept?

one mans reason is another mans excuse or woman.

Of course. that’s my point.  Whether it’s an excuse or a reasonable explanation is up to the observer.  (Fan)

[Dave J]

3 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

The irony is Lambert did ok in the transfer market consider the funds he had. Then when the club finally decided to reinvest and spend money earned from sales. Lambert was no longer the manager.

Had Lambert been given money to spend I think he would have done an ok job. In the season he got sacked he had given up. Totally worn down. 

Keeping it on topic. The advantage of Bruce as manager seems to be his contacts and players wanting to sign for him. Terry, Johnstone, Snodgrass and Elmo are down to Bruce. 

Totally agree when you say Lambert had given up the ghost - he knew the score and inevitability of it all - he could have made a decent career for himself but  like it or not we done for him - and I'm not sure he will ever rediscover the verve that his Norwich team displayed