Steve Bruce

[Stevo985]

45 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

I cut him some slack for this. Reversing from "burn the furniture everything must go! Aston Villa is doomed!" to "nevermind, we are fine, go build a promotion  challenging squad again." was quite the whiplash summer for him.

Yeah that's what I was getting at. One minute he was probably preparing for going into this season with a decimated squad, next he can actually make signings.

I still think CB should have ben addressed somehow, but it's not like we had all summer to address it.

[srsmithusa]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah that's what I was getting at. One minute he was probably preparing for going into this season with a decimated squad, next he can actually make signings.

I still think CB should have ben addressed somehow, but it's not like we had all summer to address it.

Yeah, no sense having a ranked list of preferred targets in key positions.  That would mean being prepared or some such nonsense.   Despite my sarcastic self, it was a bit of whiplash for us.  But one would think the manager would have demanded and gotten some ideas about behind the scenes stuff.  

[Stevo985]

51 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Yeah, no sense having a ranked list of preferred targets in key positions.  That would mean being prepared or some such nonsense.   Despite my sarcastic self, it was a bit of whiplash for us.  But one would think the manager would have demanded and gotten some ideas about behind the scenes stuff.  

Do you know that he didn't?

Is that even his job? I this day and age I doubt the manager has much input into targets. I imagine they're presented to him.

Is he even getting a say in transfers? The story a couple of weeks ago was that it was out of his hands. Now that there's something negative to throw at him, transfers are all his doing.

Maybe he had a huge list of Centreback targets and the club couldn't sign any of them? 

 

All of that might be bollocks. All of it might be true. But you see how you can twist it to match whatever argument you want to make?

 

Personally I find it very hard to believe that a manager who supposedly puts such value in his defence, was just sat around not trying to sign any defenders. If we don't strengthen that position then I'll blame him, but I doubt it was because he was unprepared or not even trying. And I'll acknowledge that the goings on in the summer probably made signings players harder than usual.

[TRO]

14 hours ago, terrytini said:

Spot on.

Firstly......

The suggestion that - in a Championship Team - because some players are below par or inconsistent we as a Team will play poorly/ be ineffective/ struggle to Win/ whatever else one wants to call it, makes no sense at all to me.

There is barely a Team in the World that DOESNT have those issues. The whole point of a Manager is surely to devise systems, tactics, plans, and selections, to minimise the effect of the negatives and maximise the effect of the positives.

To expect/ want/ hope for a Team full of quality, consistent, players is fantasy land. 

 

 

Secondly.........

As you rightly point out the differences between last seasons squad and this seasons are minimal. The difference in the first choice first eleven likewise. Of course Snodgrass is a big miss, Terry likewise.......but that's 2 players and we certainly appear to have a guy of quality arrive in McGinn. And as you say, ( certainly at present ) Jack and Kodja injury free.

We know Green has ability, we know Kodja scores goals, we know Albert can play. We also know CH scores goals ( yet isn’t getting in the team ?). Of course their form will vary, their output will vary, but the job of the Manager is to get performances of a type and level that minimise these variables.

I don’t want Bruce sacked, ( it’s my view that results stack up) and I don’t personally have an issue with his style or methods ( because, in my view, results stack up).......BUT it is clear as day that that style, and those methods, leave him more susceptible to variations in the form of players than a more sophisticated, repeatable, style would.

(On the other hand those that would prefer alternatives should be aware that such systems and styles of play still guarantee nothing).

Id say that he would be better served to select positively, and ensure sufficient creativity in the side. Starting Saturday with only Jack and McGinn as creative players ( Elmo is an attacking Full Back at best, Albert is nothing at the moment) WAS defensive, and cautious.

At our best last season ( I know some say that was still not good enough !) we played with 4 creative players, in Snodgrass, Jack, CH, and an in form Albert. Two is insufficient. It certainly makes no sense to have Elmo and Albert both in the Team and CH on the bench.

Yes, Green has looked off the pace, but Albert is totally out of it......why not select Green and give him the confidence and licence to make mistakes ? Tell him “ go and forge an ‘Elmo/ Snoddy’ partnership with whoever is RB’.....The answer is, the Manager has a default position of caution.

Yes Axel is naive, and unproven, at CB.....but Jedi is proven to be limited. .......why not select Axel there and tell him “ go and forge a partnership with Chester and the GK”. Because, caution says go with Jedi.

Its almost as if the Manager doubts the ability in the squad and so selects from a safety first view - which is what he did ( with possibly more justification) in the first half of his tenure. It’s not helped by him referring to the “ loss of half a team” and the “ need for 5 or 6”.

I have never thought his ‘ style’ or lack of one is the issue, and I certainly don’t think the players are the issue ( although on Saturday, for example, they carry responsibility for a lack of composure when shooting).

Be braver, be bolder, select accordingly, take a chance on someone rather than select a struggler, give the creative guys licence. Take the game, and the League, by the scruff of the neck.

 

 

 

 

 

You say players are not the issue......yet a new player comes in( McGinn) and shows that is exactly what it is.

you say Albert is totally out of it, and Green is off the pace......teams going for promotion, can't carry that.....but we have no one else.

[TRO]

On 19/08/2018 at 17:46, Keyblade said:

One big problem with Steve is that he's very reactive as opposed to proactive. We don't impose ourselves on other teams, but instead react to them. 

If the line of thinking on here is true then his bizarre team selection yesterday was supposedly to counteract Ipswich's aerial prowess. In the end, Jedinak who was supposed to nullify this despite his other shortcomings was still out-jumped from a long throw-in and it was all for naught.

On the other hand, to accommodate this we played a centre back at right back that offered nothing going forward and we had a completely disjointed right side of our attack. We show far too much respect to teams especially when we are away from home.

The man just doesn't want to lose. With a game plan like that, sooner or later it's going to backfire and we won't win. This isn't the mentality of contenders which our owners expect us to be and I think it'll be coming into review very soon if we draw or lose a few more games in this manner.

You make some good points......heading for 4th  again.

[TRO]

12 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

There's your problem.

Football Facebook groups are full of idiots.

Well constructed answer.....especially when its one you was looking for.

Edited August 20, 2018 by TRO

[sheepyvillian]

2 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

Yeah, no sense having a ranked list of preferred targets in key positions.  That would mean being prepared or some such nonsense.   Despite my sarcastic self, it was a bit of whiplash for us.  But one would think the manager would have demanded and gotten some ideas about behind the scenes stuff.  

Or some semblance of cohesive football.

[sheepyvillian]

If we lose tomorrow he should go. We can't be getting played off our own park by Brentford, yet again, and everyone just shrugs their shoulders, because it's our bogey side. What was it Oscar Wilde said about repeating the same mistake ? Even the Bruce supporters seem devoid of all confidence in our ability to get a victory. It's a joke, it really is. Our manager is a relic, the game is now about pace, poise, and transition. We're more like hit and hope, but just make sure everyone is back when the opposition get a corner. We may win tomorrow, but I doubt we'll do it in a way that will give me goosebumps.

Brentford might not win anything, but I believe they think the least they can do is entertain. And they've sure proven that against us recently. I'd take Dean Smith over Bruce all day long. I think he will go on to better things, similar to the route of Eddie Howe, and Smith's a Villa fan, so I hope so.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Tomorrow’s game will be intriguing. The new owners will see two contrasting styles albeit one team will have arguably the better players. 

If they do control the game, which they usually tend to against us and most teams it will be interesting to see what the new owners make of it.  I know it’s been done to death that it’s not just about Dean Smith but the whole setup. But surely he must take some credit.

Hopefully it’s all irrelevant because we play them off the park and win 3-0.

[DaveAV1]

28 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Tomorrow’s game will be intriguing. The new owners will see two contrasting styles albeit one team will have arguably the better players. 

If they do control the game, which they usually tend to against us and most teams it will be interesting to see what the new owners make of it.  I know it’s been done to death that it’s not just about Dean Smith but the whole setup. But surely he must take some credit.

Hopefully it’s all irrelevant because we play them off the park and win 3-0.

This “It’s not just Dean Smith” thing, do Brentford have some secret back room staff set up that nobody can replicate? Perhaps if we hired him he could let us in on the mystery?

[Vive_La_Villa]

23 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

This “It’s not just Dean Smith” thing, do Brentford have some secret back room staff set up that nobody can replicate? Perhaps if we hired him he could let us in on the mystery?

I heard he is just the face to cover up the hundreds of minions that do the real work behind the scenes.  

[sne]

Don't they have at least part of the set up we are looking to create?

A club who's entire outlook and personality doesn't live and die in the hands of whatever manager is calling the shots.

People behind the scenes and around the manager doing more than just being friend with said manager and actually have a long term plan and ability (albeit a lack of funds and resources to do anything major).

Forget about Dean Smith, it's the people running the club they should study and take a few ideas from perhaps.

Or not, my only real knowledge about them is from what I've read here and some bits from articles and a Swedish forum.

Since we are a far bigger club I hope we look at people from clubs bigger than Brentford.

I know we can't get lets say Monchi in, but clubs like Hoffenhaim, Mainz (previously) have been able to produce great managers and punch well above their weight. And it's not just luck.

With Adidas contacts and perhaps Mendez helping us out we should be able to build something here. Long and short term.

I don't think they will panic fire Bruce, if they do sack him it will be because they have already seen enough or have people lined up.

Brentford are doing a good job considering, but I doubt these guys are looking to be anything close to what they are. They have bigger plans.

Dean Smith is not what they are aiming at IMO.

[jimcohen]

Just wanted to add some up to date stats to continue the "Bruce Ball" discussion as the stats show we don't do it that much, but definitely do it more than we should as it is hurting what we are good at, dribbling and crossing. 

We are ranked 18th for accurate Long balls completed so far this season, 19th for long passes  attempted a key pass and 11th for Long balls attempted.

So I wouldn't say we are that much more of a long ball team compared to most in this league. But the issue is that because we complete a lower percentage than most and play more than most, the tactic doesn't work for us. Either the ball out is poor or the moment and control from the receiving player is poor. I have witnessed both many times. This combines to leave us 14th for most unsuccessful touches and 9th for most dispossessed. All this for a team that ranks 15th for most passes attempted with zero through passes being successful thus far. 

So in short, we don't pass it that much and when we do, we typically loose it due to every possible reason you might think! So it isn't just long balls, its passing in general!

This style of play, as lead us to be ranked 13th in most shots on goal. 

Despite this, we rank 5th for most goals, so something is working. What do we do well?

We rank 5th for successful dribbles, but are only 10th for dribbles attempted, so we need to do this more. It works for us. 

We rank 5th for accurate crosses and for second for crosses resulting in a key pass. We are 3rd from set piece goals, we are second for headed goals and are top for goals from a cross, 4 goals thus far. 

So the stats suggest we should dribble it out wide, cross it in and try to score that way, rather than knock it about in the middle or play long. This plays to Jack dribbling strengths, the crossing of Elmo, Green, Adomah, Jack and McGinn and heading strength of Kodjia. It suggests to me we should play 4-4-2 with two up top ready for those crosses, so when Davis is back fit, maybe this is something we could try. Dropping the CDM for the forward. This would work for home games and then away play Jack wide and bring back in a CDM alongside McGinn for away games. 

[tomav84]

10 minutes ago, jimcohen said:

Just wanted to add some up to date stats to continue the "Bruce Ball" discussion as the stats show we don't do it that much, but definitely do it more than we should as it is hurting what we are good at, dribbling and crossing. 

We are ranked 18th for accurate Long balls completed so far this season, 19th for long passes  attempted a key pass and 11th for Long balls attempted.

So I wouldn't say we are that much more of a long ball team compared to most in this league. But the issue is that because we complete a lower percentage than most and play more than most, the tactic doesn't work for us. Either the ball out is poor or the moment and control from the receiving player is poor. I have witnessed both many times. This combines to leave us 14th for most unsuccessful touches and 9th for most dispossessed. All this for a team that ranks 15th for most passes attempted with zero through passes being successful thus far. 

So in short, we don't pass it that much and when we do, we typically loose it due to every possible reason you might think! So it isn't just long balls, its passing in general!

This style of play, as lead us to be ranked 13th in most shots on goal. 

Despite this, we rank 5th for most goals, so something is working. What do we do well?

We rank 5th for successful dribbles, but are only 10th for dribbles attempted, so we need to do this more. It works for us. 

We rank 5th for accurate crosses and for second for crosses resulting in a key pass. We are 3rd from set piece goals, we are second for headed goals and are top for goals from a cross, 4 goals thus far. 

So the stats suggest we should dribble it out wide, cross it in and try to score that way, rather than knock it about in the middle or play long. This plays to Jack dribbling strengths, the crossing of Elmo, Green, Adomah, Jack and McGinn and heading strength of Kodjia. It suggests to me we should play 4-4-2 with two up top ready for those crosses, so when Davis is back fit, maybe this is something we could try. Dropping the CDM for the forward. This would work for home games and then away play Jack wide and bring back in a CDM alongside McGinn for away games. 

i've considered 'bruce ball' a myth for some time...i had a look at similar stats yesterday but got bored much earlier than you did clearly...fair play for persevering! from when i was looking it seemed that jedinak was the main culprit of both long balls attempted and unsuccessful ones indicating a clear lack of composure from him when he's at the back.

i would be interested to know who the main culprits are for the unsuccessful touches/dispossessed stats...for all the one touch they practice at half time (and presumably in training) these really should be inexcusable?

[DaveAV1]

43 minutes ago, jimcohen said:

Just wanted to add some up to date stats to continue the "Bruce Ball" discussion as the stats show we don't do it that much, but definitely do it more than we should as it is hurting what we are good at, dribbling and crossing. 

We are ranked 18th for accurate Long balls completed so far this season, 19th for long passes  attempted a key pass and 11th for Long balls attempted.

So I wouldn't say we are that much more of a long ball team compared to most in this league. But the issue is that because we complete a lower percentage than most and play more than most, the tactic doesn't work for us. Either the ball out is poor or the moment and control from the receiving player is poor. I have witnessed both many times. This combines to leave us 14th for most unsuccessful touches and 9th for most dispossessed. All this for a team that ranks 15th for most passes attempted with zero through passes being successful thus far. 

So in short, we don't pass it that much and when we do, we typically loose it due to every possible reason you might think! So it isn't just long balls, its passing in general!

This style of play, as lead us to be ranked 13th in most shots on goal. 

Despite this, we rank 5th for most goals, so something is working. What do we do well?

We rank 5th for successful dribbles, but are only 10th for dribbles attempted, so we need to do this more. It works for us. 

We rank 5th for accurate crosses and for second for crosses resulting in a key pass. We are 3rd from set piece goals, we are second for headed goals and are top for goals from a cross, 4 goals thus far. 

So the stats suggest we should dribble it out wide, cross it in and try to score that way, rather than knock it about in the middle or play long. This plays to Jack dribbling strengths, the crossing of Elmo, Green, Adomah, Jack and McGinn and heading strength of Kodjia. It suggests to me we should play 4-4-2 with two up top ready for those crosses, so when Davis is back fit, maybe this is something we could try. Dropping the CDM for the forward. This would work for home games and then away play Jack wide and bring back in a CDM alongside McGinn for away games. 

Bruce out. We want Jim!!

[jimcohen]

13 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i've considered 'bruce ball' a myth for some time...i had a look at similar stats yesterday but got bored much earlier than you did clearly...fair play for persevering! from when i was looking it seemed that jedinak was the main culprit of both long balls attempted and unsuccessful ones indicating a clear lack of composure from him when he's at the back.

i would be interested to know who the main culprits are for the unsuccessful touches/dispossessed stats...for all the one touch they practice at half time (and presumably in training) these really should be inexcusable?

Well against Ipswich, Jedi had a 63% pass success against a team average of 72%. Looks bad, especially when compared to Chester's 84%, but then our fullbacks were 63% AT and 68 AH, so not great there either. 

Dispossessed wise, Kodjia and McGinn were robbed 5 times each, Adomah 3 times. Hutts and Tuanzeba twice each.  

Its all as you would expects for their positions really, but worse for Jedi although he did win 10 aeriel battles against Chesters 5 and made 2 tackles to Chesters 0. 

[DaveAV1]

4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I heard he is just the face to cover up the hundreds of minions that do the real work behind the scenes.  

So he’s like King of the Ants. 

[TRO]

42 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i've considered 'bruce ball' a myth for some time...i had a look at similar stats yesterday but got bored much earlier than you did clearly...fair play for persevering! from when i was looking it seemed that jedinak was the main culprit of both long balls attempted and unsuccessful ones indicating a clear lack of composure from him when he's at the back.

i would be interested to know who the main culprits are for the unsuccessful touches/dispossessed stats...for all the one touch they practice at half time (and presumably in training) these really should be inexcusable?

We play Jedinak in the main, because overall the team is lightweight in one form or another.

We struggle against physical sides and we struggle against teams who move the ball quickly.....we are a bit wooden.

[London Villa]

12 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

If we lose tomorrow he should go. We can't be getting played off our own park by Brentford, yet again, and everyone just shrugs their shoulders, because it's our bogey side. What was it Oscar Wilde said about repeating the same mistake ? Even the Bruce supporters seem devoid of all confidence in our ability to get a victory. It's a joke, it really is. Our manager is a relic, the game is now about pace, poise, and transition. We're more like hit and hope, but just make sure everyone is back when the opposition get a corner. We may win tomorrow, but I doubt we'll do it in a way that will give me goosebumps.

Brentford might not win anything, but I believe they think the least they can do is entertain. And they've sure proven that against us recently. I'd take Dean Smith over Bruce all day long. I think he will go on to better things, similar to the route of Eddie Howe, and Smith's a Villa fan, so I hope so.

And so if we win tomorrow and are suddenly played three drew one, should he still go or do we wait for the next defeat in the Championship and then get rid? You’re so anti-Bruce it’s boring. The Dean Smith thing equally so. 

Weve had an awful Summer where most managers would have resigned under the conditions that they’ve been under

Back the team, back the manager because right now, we’re up there after a near catastrophe. If we’re nowhere near at Christmas, it’s time to reassess.

[London Villa]

1 hour ago, jimcohen said:

Just wanted to add some up to date stats to continue the "Bruce Ball" discussion as the stats show we don't do it that much, but definitely do it more than we should as it is hurting what we are good at, dribbling and crossing. 

We are ranked 18th for accurate Long balls completed so far this season, 19th for long passes  attempted a key pass and 11th for Long balls attempted.

So I wouldn't say we are that much more of a long ball team compared to most in this league. But the issue is that because we complete a lower percentage than most and play more than most, the tactic doesn't work for us. Either the ball out is poor or the moment and control from the receiving player is poor. I have witnessed both many times. This combines to leave us 14th for most unsuccessful touches and 9th for most dispossessed. All this for a team that ranks 15th for most passes attempted with zero through passes being successful thus far. 

So in short, we don't pass it that much and when we do, we typically loose it due to every possible reason you might think! So it isn't just long balls, its passing in general!

This style of play, as lead us to be ranked 13th in most shots on goal. 

Despite this, we rank 5th for most goals, so something is working. What do we do well?

We rank 5th for successful dribbles, but are only 10th for dribbles attempted, so we need to do this more. It works for us. 

We rank 5th for accurate crosses and for second for crosses resulting in a key pass. We are 3rd from set piece goals, we are second for headed goals and are top for goals from a cross, 4 goals thus far. 

So the stats suggest we should dribble it out wide, cross it in and try to score that way, rather than knock it about in the middle or play long. This plays to Jack dribbling strengths, the crossing of Elmo, Green, Adomah, Jack and McGinn and heading strength of Kodjia. It suggests to me we should play 4-4-2 with two up top ready for those crosses, so when Davis is back fit, maybe this is something we could try. Dropping the CDM for the forward. This would work for home games and then away play Jack wide and bring back in a CDM alongside McGinn for away games. 

Nice one Statto!!!