Steve Bruce

[TRO]

5 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

This “It’s not just Dean Smith” thing, do Brentford have some secret back room staff set up that nobody can replicate? Perhaps if we hired him he could let us in on the mystery?

I'm not sure, but I think the risk factor, plays a part

i.e Olly Watkins from Oxford to Brentford.

They take a gamble, one we possibly couldn't make....due to expectation.

I feel we are to some degree caught between a rock and a hard place.....we seem to be trying to sign surplus premier league players, arguably on the way down.....maybe we should be signing Div 1 players on the way up.

We maybe have the dynamics of recruitment wrong.

[jimcohen]

Just now, London Villa said:

Nice one Statto!!!

Slow day in the office. And I was keen to figure out what our actual style was, considering i, like many, have no clue! Dribbling and crossing isn't too bad to be fair and suits our players. Just not our system with only one up top and shows how Jack is better in wide areas seeing as we have no successful through balls, but with 2 up top and one forward who stays there rather than drifting wide, then Jack would have more to aim for with his centrally placed dribbles. I presume the club analyses games like this too, but I just don't see Brice having the balls to play 2 up top, which drives me mad. 

[terrytini]

Our opening three games last season yielded 1 point. That followed just 34 Points from the previous 25 games of the season before at an average of 1.36 Points a game. 1.36 per game would’ve got us just 62 Points.

Additionally, the performances at Cardiff and Reading were dismal. I accept that any view of performance is entirely subjective.

On the basis of all this, I wanted him sacked. I saw no way that he could get us up to 2 points per game.

Our opening three games this season yielded 7 points. That follows 49 Points from the previous 25 games of last season at an average of 1.96 Points per game. 1.96 per game would get us 90 Points.

Additionally, the performances at Hull and Ipswich were good in places, poor in others. I accept that any view of performances is entirely subjective.

On the basis of this, I think sacking him would be extremely foolish. I see clearly how he could get us to 2 points per game. 

And it’s only worth bringing someone else in if we are very very sure they can beat 2 points per game, in my view.

A win tomorrow and the debate looks even more irrelevant.

 

[TRO]

I think there are many factors that are not right at present....and its clear we are relying on moments of individual brilliance.

Lets me just mention 1 issue amongst many.

The No 9 

I am surprised that we have failed as a club to remedy this crucial position.....I think it is having such a massive impact on many aspects of our play and is causing a knock on affect to so many other players.

We signed Grabban last January and at the time I thought it was a good signing, having watched him at Sunderland.....On reflection having seen him at close quarters, he didn't lead the line, like the player, we need.

He was another striker that is easily knocked off the ball and resembles and inside forward like Kodjia as opposed to a target man.

I would hate to be a winger in this team, Imagine Morley having to FIND one of them.

Its creating a massive imbalance to our play.....We only have to look at Mitrovic's influence on Fulham last season.

I am honestly Surprised that SB  has not had more success with this weakness in out team.

Blimey both promoted teams last season seen it.....Warnock signs Madine and Jokanovic signs Mitrovic.

It really isn't rocket science.

Its like trying to operate without a wicket keeper.......its doesn't matter how you rearrange things.....the weakness persists.

 

[Pimlico_Villa]

20 minutes ago, jimcohen said:

Slow day in the office. And I was keen to figure out what our actual style was, considering i, like many, have no clue! Dribbling and crossing isn't too bad to be fair and suits our players. Just not our system with only one up top and shows how Jack is better in wide areas seeing as we have no successful through balls, but with 2 up top and one forward who stays there rather than drifting wide, then Jack would have more to aim for with his centrally placed dribbles. I presume the club analyses games like this too, but I just don't see Brice having the balls to play 2 up top, which drives me mad. 

Do you have a link to where those stats can be viewed? Thanks in advance. 

[andym]

Grabban got 8 goals in 15 games for us, Madine who was signed at the same time got 0 in 13. Mitrovic was the most effective, getting 12 in 17. 

Of course Fulham with Mitrovic were so good because they worked it through the middle, on the floor, to the edge of the box and got midfield support around him. Lots of quick, short 1 touch passing into feet which opened up space and therefore created chances. Although he is good in the air, he wasn't really used as the traditional target man (i.e. long balls or deep crosses) - they would bounce passes off him around the penalty box and then he would spin into the box ready for the setup.

Imagine if Mitrovic had been with us - asked to hold up long passes that arrive in the air 30 yards from goal, while trying to hold off both opposition centre backs with no team mates within 20 yards. Because thats how Grabban had to play numerous times, including the playoff final where he was given no chance by the first half tactics. And its going to be the same on many occasions for whoever plays up front this season.

You are right we are short up top though, even just in pure numbers let alone style of player. All of ours are all injury prone and inconsistent or inexperienced.

 

 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Our opening three games last season yielded 1 point. That followed just 34 Points from the previous 25 games of the season before at an average of 1.36 Points a game. 1.36 per game would’ve got us just 62 Points.

Additionally, the performances at Cardiff and Reading were dismal. I accept that any view of performance is entirely subjective.

On the basis of all this, I wanted him sacked. I saw no way that he could get us up to 2 points per game.

Our opening three games this season yielded 7 points. That follows 49 Points from the previous 25 games of last season at an average of 1.96 Points per game. 1.96 per game would get us 90 Points.

Additionally, the performances at Hull and Ipswich were good in places, poor in others. I accept that any view of performances is entirely subjective.

On the basis of this, I think sacking him would be extremely foolish. I see clearly how he could get us to 2 points per game. 

And it’s only worth bringing someone else in if we are very very sure they can beat 2 points per game, in my view.

A win tomorrow and the debate looks even more irrelevant.

 

a I totally agree with all that Terry.

Where I differ from some and you know this....is that I cannot see the weaknesses in our playing staff being negated by tactics or set up.....We simply don't have specialist players in specialist roles.

If that is the managers fault that some make out, then fine......but as frustrating it is to say this he has had so many bum calls during his time with us.

I accept that many recognise the swamp he took over and set backs he has had to endure.

Lets just remember, this is no ordinary club, where going down is readily accepted.....We are amongst the fore fathers of English Football and a club we all know should be in the Premier League, but to do that you have to have the team for c 10 years we haven't.

The frustration is bearing down on us all.....and the summer was yet again, another kick in the teeth.

Steve Bruce has been here nigh 2 years and on the surface, you would have thought by now the football would be more coherent and balanced.....I think the argument that its not is fair.

I then look at his reign and the building has been stop start some of it his fault, some of it not.....He has done some good things and some not so good.

I would be more comfortable if he came out and said why......we don't move the ball quick enough and why some of our weaknesses take so long to remedy.

I understand, its difficult to name names for obvious reasons, but somewhere along the way, if we are still to wait for him.....He has to give us some comfort, these obvious shortcomings are going to be fixed.

I have no idea how difficult it is to get players in , so I will temper my comments accordingly.

but fans like me, who have supported him, for sometime now, cannot do it unconditionally or in fact infinitely.

I still believe his team is not right.....but he has to fix it.

I also get frustrated when managers like Steve want to have control over recruitment and I have ever sympathy, but its no good pushing Jorges nose out for the sake of Vanity, we need the right players......if in fact that is happening.

[jimcohen]

10 minutes ago, Pimlico_Villa said:

Do you have a link to where those stats can be viewed? Thanks in advance. 

All on who scored, various places within, here is the Ipswich games stats.  https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1288707/Live/England-Championship-2018-2019-Ipswich-Aston-Villa

[Pimlico_Villa]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

I'm not sure, but I think the risk factor, plays a part

i.e Olly Watkins from Oxford to Brentford.

They take a gamble, one we possibly couldn't make....due to expectation.

I feel we are to some degree caught between a rock and a hard place.....we seem to be trying to sign surplus premier league players, arguably on the way down.....maybe we should be signing Div 1 players on the way up.

We maybe have the dynamics of recruitment wrong.

Interesting observation, that. I only think we could do it parts, though - wouldn't be able to build a team or squad that way. Would have to get them young enough as well. 

The only issue we might encounter - and we saw this perfectly with Ashley Westwood - is whether players coming from League 1 can handle playing confidently in front of >30k crowds and a full Holte. I think this is the reason so many of our players in the last 10 years elect to play safe, sideways, unadventurous passing - being booed by the Holte would kill them. 

Brentford have a tiny ground, which helps them do this.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, andym said:

Grabban got 8 goals in 15 games for us, Madine who was signed at the same time got 0 in 13. Mitrovic was the most effective, getting 12 in 17. 

Of course Fulham with Mitrovic were so good because they worked it through the middle, on the floor, to the edge of the box and got midfield support around him. Lots of quick, short 1 touch passing into feet which opened up space and therefore created chances. Although he is good in the air, he wasn't really used as the traditional target man (i.e. long balls or deep crosses) - they would bounce passes off him around the penalty box and then he would spin into the box ready for the setup.

Imagine if Mitrovic had been with us - asked to hold up long passes that arrive in the air 30 yards from goal, while trying to hold off both opposition centre backs with no team mates within 20 yards. Because thats how Grabban had to play numerous times, including the playoff final where he was given no chance by the first half tactics. And its going to be the same on many occasions for whoever plays up front this season.

You are right we are short up top though, even just in pure numbers let alone style of player. All of ours are all injury prone and inconsistent or inexperienced.

 

 

• but Andy, its not about JUST scoring goals.....Leonard was not that prolific, but he was great at leading the line, it brings the rest of the team in.
• With Mitrovic its what comes first the chicken or the egg.....We probably would play those balls if we had him or the likes of Glen Murray etc and the team would be more confident moving forward, its just an opinion....also Fulham didn't do that up until January when they signed him, they were sitting 10th, so all the fancy football we credit them with was a myth in terms of results up until he came.

I vaguely remember a scenario like this

I can't quite remember the ERA exactly, but I have seen this scenario before, where we had a decent side but no target man......we eventually signed one ( and I can't remember who it was, just the scenario) and it transformed the team and the performances.

I would guess the club are majorly frustrated, like we are, with not getting players in yet.

[TRO]

30 minutes ago, Pimlico_Villa said:

Interesting observation, that. I only think we could do it parts, though - wouldn't be able to build a team or squad that way. Would have to get them young enough as well. 

The only issue we might encounter - and we saw this perfectly with Ashley Westwood - is whether players coming from League 1 can handle playing confidently in front of >30k crowds and a full Holte. I think this is the reason so many of our players in the last 10 years elect to play safe, sideways, unadventurous passing - being booed by the Holte would kill them. 

Brentford have a tiny ground, which helps them do this.

Exactly my point.

I thought when we went down, such was the disaster area .....this will be a long job.

I think we have rushed at it.....that is not a criticism, its an observation.

I can see arguments on both sides like you say.

What I would say, is how the Character of the player is so crucial......timid players or shrinking Violets, will respond the way you describe....it consumes them.

players like Andy Gray(19) the stadium wasn't big enough, he had the appetite for the colosseum.....much Like McGinn( 23)

We want them type of players.

Edited August 21, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, jimcohen said:

Slow day in the office. And I was keen to figure out what our actual style was, considering i, like many, have no clue! Dribbling and crossing isn't too bad to be fair and suits our players. Just not our system with only one up top and shows how Jack is better in wide areas seeing as we have no successful through balls, but with 2 up top and one forward who stays there rather than drifting wide, then Jack would have more to aim for with his centrally placed dribbles. I presume the club analyses games like this too, but I just don't see Brice having the balls to play 2 up top, which drives me mad. 

Jim, I could be wrong......but the lacking in style for me is a cop out.

its like a water leak through the drivers door, its misleading......it comes in to the cab at the bottom, but in fact the leak is at the top of the door and runs down......I think many of us are barking up the wrong tree....that could be me of course.....its all to be proved.

I think when you have too many player issues its hard to develop a style.....too may things break down and it becomes more improvisation....with players having to cover for someone else's game.

The goals and results are covering over the cracks.

When the team is fixed, hopefully soon, I will then look at the managers game management.....at present too many weaknesses for me, to judge him properly in that specific area.

Edited August 21, 2018 by TRO

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, London Villa said:

And so if we win tomorrow and are suddenly played three drew one, should he still go or do we wait for the next defeat in the Championship and then get rid? You’re so anti-Bruce it’s boring. The Dean Smith thing equally so. 

Weve had an awful Summer where most managers would have resigned under the conditions that they’ve been under

Back the team, back the manager because right now, we’re up there after a near catastrophe. If we’re nowhere near at Christmas, it’s time to reassess.

Playing like we are, trust me, we'll be in the bottom three come Xmas. As I said, the man is s relic.

[PieFacE]

1 minute ago, sheepyvillian said:

Playing like we are, trust me, we'll be in the bottom three come Xmas. As I said, the man is s relic.

We really wont. 

[sheepyvillian]

3 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

We really wont. 

Okay, bottom two.

[Stevo985]

15 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Playing like we are, trust me, we'll be in the bottom three come Xmas. As I said, the man is s relic.

Hyperbole

[Hoof hearted]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

Hyperbole

Or banter? Depends on which side of the Serious county line you were born.

[sne]

23 minutes ago, TRO said:

Jim, I could be wrong......but the lacking in style for me is a cop out.

its like a water leak through the drivers door, its misleading......it comes in to the cab at the bottom, but in fact the leak is at the top of the door and runs down......I think many of us are barking up the wrong tree....that could be me of course.....its all to be proved.

I think when you have too many player issues its hard to develop a style.....too may things break down and it becomes more improvisation....with players having to cover for someone else's game.

The goals and results are covering over the cracks.

When the team is fixed, hopefully soon, I will then look at the managers game management.....at present too many weaknesses for me, to judge him properly in that specific area.

There are just way, way, way ,way, way............... to many teams around the world with far, far.... (you get the point) worse squads than us that are able to create a style that is recognizable, works for them and is working for them and they are able to repeat even when 1 or 2 even key players are out.

There are also loads of teams with amazing squads that fail to perform or look like a functioning unit despite this.

No team is ever perfect (OK Bayern that one season under Heynckes, Barca with Pep, Brazil back in the day...) but waiting for that one player to fix it, especially for a Championship side is just naive.

I'd say it's more telling of the manager how he and the team is when he doesn't have all the tools and everyone and everything handed to him on a silver plate.

If Bruce can't operate without all this then he's never going to be successful, here or anywhere else.

[villa4europe]

34 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Playing like we are, trust me, we'll be in the bottom three come Xmas. As I said, the man is s relic.

of course we wont

but that's because the quality of the players is negating the quality of the management

[sheepyvillian]

13 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

of course we wont

but that's because the quality of the players is negating the quality of the management

I hope you're right.