Steve Bruce

[Tomaszk]

6 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

We really need to have an ethos, a system, in place from the academy right through to the first team, and to be buying players to suit that system, and the younger the better.

Not easy, I know, but there needs to be an attempt, at least to achieve this, to fulfil our potential.

It can hopefully start with some tactics and passing of the football from the first XI.

We've got an easy start this time round so can hopefully get a head of steam up.

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

We really need to have an ethos, a system, in place from the academy right through to the first team, and to be buying players to suit that system, and the younger the better.

Not easy, I know, but there needs to be an attempt, at least to achieve this, to fulfil our potential.

I do understand what you are saying....and not arguing with you.

but, when we played Wolves at home and Bristol at home.....what was wrong with that? In terms of system....The manager and the players, was good enough those days.

Our Problem is we are not consistent enough and lose control, when we come up against teams who squeez and press us.QPR and Bolton was perfect examples of letting inferior teams dominate us.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, sne said:

Villa Engine ™

Words, no action.

[TRO]

Bring in Mitrovic on loan......Dan Burn alongside Chester.

and give it a go with our talented kids protected.

[sne]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do understand what you are saying....and not arguing with you.

but, when we played Wolves at home and Bristol at home.....what was wrong with that? In terms of system....The manager and the players, was good enough those days.

Our Problem is we are not consistent enough and lose control, when we come up against teams who squeez and press us.QPR and Bolton was perfect examples of letting inferior teams dominate us.

The problem with our inconsistency is that we don't have a system to fall back on when things are not working 100%

We have (had) players who on their day can be very good for this level, but not a team that can regularly dominate other teams.

You can either achieve this by singing even better players (can't afford to) or by creating and drilling a system that every player knows and feel secure in their roles in.

IMO the best way to escape from pressing is pass and move, movement patters and passing routes drilled in and lots of attention to details in training.

We often become static and allow teams to press and dominate us because we lack those things, and elderly squad running out of steam also doesn't help.

I doubt it would have helped much if Hourihane and Chester were 10 centimeter taller and had a bit more muscle. Those were not the issues.

Edited July 28, 2018 by sne

[TRO]

1 hour ago, sne said:

The problem with our inconsistency is that we don't have a system to fall back on when things are not working 100%

We have (had) players who on their day can be very good for this level, but not a team that can regularly dominate other teams.

You can either achieve this by singing even better players (can't afford to) or by creating and drilling a system that every player knows and feel secure in their roles in.

IMO the best way to escape from pressing is pass and move, movement patters and passing routes drilled in and lots of attention to details in training.

We often become static and allow teams to press and dominate us because we lack those things, and elderly squad running out of steam also doesn't help.

I doubt it would have helped much if Hourihane and Chester were 10 centimeter taller and had a bit more muscle. Those were not the issues.

you make some points that can't be argued with, but a slightly different slant can be applied.

• I am not convinced systems alone will suffice, but I do buy in to a cohesive unit all playing for each other and letting the ball do the work and thus conserving energy......I am more of the theory managers can't ask players to do what they are not capable of doing.....that then does come down to getting recruitment right.I am not convinced our team is right, close, but not quite right.
• IMO A system alone will never make a player be secure in their roles,  only their ability to dominate their opponent will do that.....If a players colleagues have to come to their aid too often, it leaves gaps for the opposition to exploit.....I have seen that too often for a team with promotion ambitions.
• You are right about passing and moving.....I have seen us do it and I have seen us not do it, depending on the opposition, we do tend to be easily negated.....which suggests to me the player is central to the inconsistency.
• As a manager, you can drill in to a player, all sorts of things, but if they don't do it, you have to have players that can, if you don't, you are as best burn't as scolded.....Its all very well saying, he should tell them this that or the other, but maybe he does and they just can't carry it out......I don't think for one minute it was part of the plan of RDM to keep conceding goals in the last 5 minutes...but managers carry the can.
• It is very hard for the average fan to understand the rudiments of stamina and energy....but static play for whatever reason is a component of the player, it is natural for a fully fit football athlete to move around naturally and willfully to receive the ball...... a player who is reluctant to do that is a partially redundant one, or one who hides behind an opponent in the camouflaged hope that he is not receiving the ball.
• I disagree with the last line.....Muscle is not the answer to everything, but it does enable you to fight for the ball and aids the ability to impose your natural will on your opponent, Fulhams midfield is an example....In the case of Chester, I disagree again, He has many attributes,that are good, but if he was 6' 2/3 he would be playing in the Prem....at this level, he can be outmuscled by players half his ability.....come and sit next to me I will show you when it happens.....Matt Smith of QPR gave a highlighted display when we met them....John Terry struggled with him too.....This league demands you cope with this type of challenge.

Let me give you an example of a player picked out at random.....Albert Adomah on his day is a tremendous player, he is elusive, quick and has a good cross a poor mans Mahrez.....In games like away at Bolton, he goes missing.....I have seen Albert go missing too many times, when we needed him, a system will not save him from that. I understand that players at this level can suffer from that.....but the teams that gain Automatic promotion have less players that suffer from that.....They are more durable....they don't have a better system as such by some design, they create it ,with better players, who cope with all eventualities.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TRO

[VillanousOne]

just watching the game against Dresden, the fact he is happy to start with no strikers says a lot. Appreciate he has few options left, although would rather see Knibbs or Davis (is he injured?) start than rely on a out of form Adomah.
 

If/when Grealish gets sold what little creativity we had goes with him and the 'play all the right and left backs' goes into overdrive.

Edited July 28, 2018 by VillanousOne

[Bunnski]

I'm so underwhelmed for this season, all I can see ahead is boring shite football from a manager that doesn't do tactics. I just want him gone...

[VillanousOne]

forget Thierry Henry, Henry the Hoover could do a better job.

[supermon]

Yup Bruce is definitely the right man to take us forward. So happy the new owners kept him on!!

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

just watching the game against Dresden, the fact he is happy to start with no strikers says a lot. Appreciate he has few options left, although would rather see Knibbs or Davis (is he injured?) start than rely on a out of form Adomah.
 

If/when Grealish gets sold what little creativity we had goes with him and the 'play all the right and left backs' goes into overdrive.

Well.....If what you say is so obvious to all and sundry.....It won't go on for long.

I think these new guys will be keen to have everyone on side....press, media, fans , ex pro's with opinions.

They have done the right thing.....but I will be very surprised if they put up with what you are suggesting.

This is not a victory for the Bruce Inners like me ( for now)...its a victory for common sense.

The new owners (to be) will make their mark when they are good and ready.

I won't say 'patience'....because we are all fed up of the word.

[theboyangel]

4 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

forget Thierry Henry, Henry the Hoover could do a better job.

I heard he really sucks...

Edited July 28, 2018 by theboyangel

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, theboyangel said:

I heard he really sucks...

Lenny, would have been better.....at least we could have a laugh.

Lenny form Duuuuuddddllllaaaaaayyyyyy.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TRO

[VillanousOne]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well.....If what you say is so obvious to all and sundry.....It won't go on for long.

I think these new guys will be keen to have everyone on side....press, media, fans , ex pro's with opinions.

They have done the right thing.....but I will be very surprised if they put up with what you are suggesting.

This is not a victory for the Bruce Inners like me ( for now)...its a victory for common sense.

The new owners (to be) will make their mark when they are good and ready.

I won't say 'patience'....because we are all fed up of the word.

with gritted teeth i agree that sacking Bruce at this stage in preseason would have been a tricky path to go down. But we are putting off the inevitable.

One issue is now that he has lost all his loan players Bruce isn't thinking 'now i have to bring some of the fringe players into the starting 11 to fill the void'. He is thinking 'who out of my trusted players can I get to play out of position, what formation can I play so that i can incorporate all the wing backs so that the fringe players i don't trust, stay fringe players'.

Lucky Andre Green is one of his 'chosen'.
 

Edited July 28, 2018 by VillanousOne

[praisedmambo]

9 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

Lucky Andre Green is one of his 'chosen'.

Be fair! Someone has to play up front. We don't have any strikers left fit. I'd probably rather Green/Adomah up front than the next rookie who would in reality be about seventh choice. 

[andym]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

Let me give you an example of a player picked out at random.....Albert Adomah on his day is a tremendous player, he is elusive, quick and has a good cross a poor mans Mahrez.....In games like away at Bolton, he goes missing.....I have seen Albert go missing too many times, when we needed him, a system will not save him from that. I understand that players at this level can suffer from that.....but the teams that gain Automatic promotion have less players that suffer from that.....They are more durable....they don't have a better system as such by some design, they create it ,with better players, who cope with all eventualities.

But a better system will mean when an individual has an off-day, the team doesn't suffer as much.

How about an example of another player, Ryan Sessegnon, one of the key players for Fulham. From Boxing Day to the start of March he went on a great run, scoring 10 in 12 games. After that he scored 1 in the final 11 games of the season. Yet Fulham kept getting results, because their team wasn't entirely reliant on his individual performance, and they also had a base level of pass and move drilled into all of their players for them to fall back on. It was the same with Wolves, and although Cardiff didn't have the same pass and move style, they all knew their responsibilities and were incredibly well drilled, so when players were injured or went missing in games, the 'next one up' could slot in easily. 

In contrast, we were massively reliant on individual movements, mainly from Grealish - pretty much everything went through him and if he didn't fire we struggled. We didn't have that base level of pass and move to fall back on, as seen by all the times we resorted to aimless balls for the forwards to chase if Grealish wasn't able to skip past 3 or 4 to open things up.

I would dispute Fulham and Cardiff had better players who could better cope with all eventualities. Only Wolves had a clearly better side, and given they also had a coach who had obviously worked with all of them on the training ground (see the likes of Connor Coady suddenly massively improving on the ball) that's why they destroyed the rest of the league.

[rodders0223]

Hopefully the last time he ever brings back his 5-3-2 lovechild. It has worked for him with other teams, indeed...but not this one. It will never work with these players.

JUST
STOP
PLEASE

[AvfcRigo82]

Brucie is just a ticking time bomb before the off imo.

He won't sustain this and I will be very suprised to see him still here come October.

Why? Well, He is the one who has supposedly said he is "willing to stick by the club".. well he has been given the extended gig so to speak and it is down to him now.

But with no budget as such and using exisiting players and youth for me is going to end in tears for him simply because he just cannot see the sand from the sea in where to go from here and how to utilise what he has at his disposal properly.

Being on the side of the Bruce out camp, it is by no means that we are just sitting waiting to say ha haa, told you so, but more the fact that you can just see what is brewing if results start to slip or he does not get off to a good start.

The new owners have put the heat on him if you will. Will Bruce cope with the heat? time will tell but I am not filled with confidence on the matter and can slightly feel a touch of what he did to Hull and what MO'N did to us being on the horizon.

[villa89]

50 minutes ago, Bunnski said:

I'm so underwhelmed for this season, all I can see ahead is boring shite football from a manager that doesn't do tactics. I just want him gone...

Same here. He couldn't do anything last season and he'll have a much worse squad this season so it's impossible to see us achieving anything of note while he's in charge.

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, andym said:

But a better system will mean when an individual has an off-day, the team doesn't suffer as much.

How about an example of another player, Ryan Sessegnon, one of the key players for Fulham. From Boxing Day to the start of March he went on a great run, scoring 10 in 12 games. After that he scored 1 in the final 11 games of the season. Yet Fulham kept getting results, because their team wasn't entirely reliant on his individual performance, and they also had a base level of pass and move drilled into all of their players for them to fall back on. It was the same with Wolves, and although Cardiff didn't have the same pass and move style, they all knew their responsibilities and were incredibly well drilled, so when players were injured or went missing in games, the 'next one up' could slot in easily. 

In contrast, we were massively reliant on individual movements, mainly from Grealish - pretty much everything went through him and if he didn't fire we struggled. We didn't have that base level of pass and move to fall back on, as seen by all the times we resorted to aimless balls for the forwards to chase if Grealish wasn't able to skip past 3 or 4 to open things up.

I would dispute Fulham and Cardiff had better players who could better cope with all eventualities. Only Wolves had a clearly better side, and given they also had a coach who had obviously worked with all of them on the training ground (see the likes of Connor Coady suddenly massively improving on the ball) that's why they destroyed the rest of the league.

• All makes sense to me, but I think this system we talk about is borne out of players who create it, not the system that creates the players....and the better the individual player, the more likely a " system " is created......We have played 4-3-3....4-1-41....3-5-2 ...4-4-2 & 5-3-2.....nothing ever looked that much different to me watching individuals play....if they never won a ball in a 4-3-3 they never won a ball in a 4-1-4-1

• Fulham had better players than us in midfield that could cope with his goals drying up and also more receptive to the pass and move style so many of us crave ( yes including me ,strangely enough, I understand what is being said)that carried them through.....Cardiff knew their responsibilities, but more importantly they coped with them and yes they easily slotted in, because apart from being well drilled, which I agree with, but they had the right credentials to respond to Neil Warnock.....With Wolves I would suspect that Coady responded to playing in a team with technically better players, but I take nothing away from Nuno, he did really well, except against us at Home ........tactics must have gone on holiday that day for him.

• I agree we were massively reliant on Grealish, because very few of our players are up to his standard.....Hence my point some of our players are not good enough technically or physically...not effective.

• I will agree to disagree....I thought over 46 games they were better than us ,all 3......However I am not lost on Terrytini's point that the first 7 games effectively killed us.

 

I do understand the point being made.....and I will be very surprised if Steve weathers this storm for long.....but I still believe, we need better players, particularly in key positions for our balance and system to work properly.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TRO