villan_007 Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, sne said: Honestly thought you were joking with that post, but OK. For me when comparing Wagner to Bruce (or Di Matteo) it's about getting the best out of what's available. Both with results and how you set up. Wagner got the fabled 110% while ours probably didn't even get 50%. In our case very much because of how we set up and played. Some of it was in jest stirring the pot i admit. I guess my point is - there is many that want Wagner for how he plays. Yet they haven't scored a single goal in the 3 play-off games. Won it on penalty's, and ended the season with a negative goal difference. It doesn't sing from the same hymn sheet. But they're up. So in the end, when it mattered, it wasn't how they played that got them there. So why are we so desperate to rip up Villa again to replace it with a manager that will bring sexy football. And at the same time to expect that sexiness to be instant? It also seems to be overlooked constantly that they finished 19th last season. So it took that time, plus a pre-season to get them playing how he wanted. Yet here we are two managers in again, two different transfers windows again, and many think a third time will bring what we want. I'm still Bruce in. It doesn't matter how it looks. At this stage is about getting up. I think he is our best bet. No I don't think it will be pretty. I to be honest I don't care. Let's just get out of this utter dump of a league. Brucie knows the way. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DCJonah Posted May 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, villan_007 said: Some of it was in jest stirring the pot i admit. I guess my point is - there is many that want Wagner for how he plays. Yet they haven't scored a single goal in the 3 play-off games. Won it on penalty's, and ended the season with a negative goal difference. It doesn't sing from the same hymn sheet. But they're up. So in the end, when it mattered, it wasn't how they played that got them there. So why are we so desperate to rip up Villa again to replace it with a manager that will bring sexy football. And at the same time to expect that sexiness to be instant? It also seems to be overlooked constantly that they finished 19th last season. So it took that time, plus a pre-season to get them playing how he wanted. Yet here we are two managers in again, two different transfers windows again, and many think a third time will bring what we want. I'm still Bruce in. It doesn't matter how it looks. At this stage is about getting up. I think he is our best bet. No I don't think it will be pretty. I to be honest I don't care. Let's just get out of this utter dump of a league. Brucie knows the way. I don't think anyone wants sexy football over winning football. The problem is we have neither. Wagner may not play pretty all the time but the difference is it's effective and he has seriously over achieved. People have defended the way Bruce plays by inventing things, making things up and we still end up as a bottom half team. Your initial piss taking post makes no sense, they've been promoted that is the whole mission. There's no one here Bruce in or Bruce out who don't want that to happen. Edited May 30, 2017 by DCJonah 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I tuned in to the playoffs yesterday ready to wonder at the sublime football of the great high priest of progressive footballing philosophy and was distinctly underwhelmed. Thought actually that Reading progressively took control of the game and rather outthought Huddersfield. Both were fairly crap at finishing. Lucky for Huddersfield that Reading bottled late on in the penalties. It's also worth noting that Steve Bruce's record with Villa last season (52 points from 35 games) isn't much different from Wagner's over the same period (56 points). He must think himself lucky that in 2015/16, when he took the club near to relegation, and last season when form faltered after November, the club and fans stuck with him and didn't immediately start calling for his head and replacement with a manager who would guarantee instant success. (Or maybe they did? Is there a Huddersfield member of the "Grasshopper tendency"? ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DCJonah Posted May 30, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: I tuned in to the playoffs yesterday ready to wonder at the sublime football of the great high priest of progressive footballing philosophy and was distinctly underwhelmed. Thought actually that Reading progressively took control of the game and rather outthought Huddersfield. Both were fairly crap at finishing. Lucky for Huddersfield that Reading bottled late on in the penalties. It's also worth noting that Steve Bruce's record with Villa last season (52 points from 35 games) isn't much different from Wagner's over the same period (56 points). He must think himself lucky that in 2015/16, when he took the club near to relegation, and last season when form faltered after November, the club and fans stuck with him and didn't immediately start calling for his head and replacement with a manager who would guarantee instant success. (Or maybe they did? Is there a Huddersfield member of the "Grasshopper tendency"? ) Given Huddersfield's status and budget I can't see why the club and fans would have turned against him. He was keeping them in the league and then this season shot up. He didn't spend a fortune and finish bottom half playing absymal football for a club and fanbase that had higher expectations. Again this comparison being made as a way to defend Bruce is just nonsense. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Given Huddersfield's status and budget I can't see why the club and fans would have turned against him. He was keeping them in the league and then this season shot up. He didn't spend a fortune and finish bottom half playing absymal football for a club and fanbase that had higher expectations. Again this comparison being made as a way to defend Bruce is just nonsense. Well, I'm not "defending" Bruce, just trying to bring a bit of perspective to what otherwise is a consistently, ridiculously biased and simplistic discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 The key thing is to ensure we are heading in the opposite direction when Huddersfield come back down from the premier league at the end of next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: I tuned in to the playoffs yesterday ready to wonder at the sublime football of the great high priest of progressive footballing philosophy and was distinctly underwhelmed. Thought actually that Reading progressively took control of the game and rather outthought Huddersfield. Both were fairly crap at finishing. Lucky for Huddersfield that Reading bottled late on in the penalties. It's also worth noting that Steve Bruce's record with Villa last season (52 points from 35 games) isn't much different from Wagner's over the same period (56 points). He must think himself lucky that in 2015/16, when he took the club near to relegation, and last season when form faltered after November, the club and fans stuck with him and didn't immediately start calling for his head and replacement with a manager who would guarantee instant success. (Or maybe they did? Is there a Huddersfield member of the "Grasshopper tendency"? ) And yet he took them into the playoffs while Bruce took us to 13th. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, briny_ear said: Well, I'm not "defending" Bruce, just trying to bring a bit of perspective to what otherwise is a consistently, ridiculously biased and simplistic discussion. What's the perspective with the Wagner comparison? If it's that he had time, well that proves nothing. Time is never a guarantee of success. DOL, Lambert and Sherwood all made us much worse the longer they spent with us. I've no doubt McLeish and Black would have done the same if they'd had longer. Time given to the right man is worth investing in but Bruce has done nothing at this club to show that's the case. It's mainly because of what he did at other clubs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 The reality is Wagner supporters have a leg to stand on. Bruce supporters dont even have a pot to piss in. In contention up to Xmas, major selection errors and loads of playing issues that meant he lost his way. v Hung around the playoffs and saw it through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: What's the perspective with the Wagner comparison? If it's that he had time, well that proves nothing. It's not so much about time as patience on the part of owners, board and fans. it's about understanding that there is no magic wand that can be waved to produce consistent results instantly and that even the most able of teams and managers have lapses in form. (And before the RDM revivalists start going on about how we should have been more patient with him in that case, I repeat my belief that it was not so much the results - poor as they were - that did for him, rather his complacency about the position we were in and his lack of a convincing story about how things would be improved. If Bruce is staying it's because Xia and co think he has got a convincing story on that front.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 20 hours ago, TRO said: GH Firstly you or I do not know what Steve Bruce has told the hierarchy maybe he has a concept too , but is only 3/4 of a season in to it.....so we haven't seen it yet. Secondly, Steve Bruce has equally got history to call on like AF to convince the board he is the right man..... 4 times promoted from this league. We ONLY need promotion?......so does another 12 clubs expect to get the same thing......nothing can be taken for granted. If haemorrhaging goals and consistently losing games, particularly in the last 10 minutes is stopped and it has......how is that not getting something right......Getting it ALL right takes a little longer. You are correct we could be waiting for a bus that never arrives.....I guess its a chance we all take and wait and see who was right. @TRO With the utmost respect from 1 die hard villa fan to another. so you can list all the theories you want. All the reasoning you give for future developments is/are and can only be deemed as infactual not yets or in laymans terms ranging from complete and utter bollox to complete fantasy and blind /faithhope. The ONLY person who can convince ANYONE that we will get promoted next season is STEVE BRUCE, not you, any of your theories or anyone on here denouncing an alternative view to their own fantasy of what they think will happen. When Bruce has us in the top two 5 weeks in a row with a better goal difference than 3rd and below, you can wake me up from my reality. I'm not even talking about expansive football here. I'll accept, 100% sure thing effective winning football. Your support for him to "get us promoted because he's done it 4 times before and he knows what he's doing, he just needs more time (preseason.....etc) " doesn NOT gave a leg to stand on. Bruce has got till the 1st hoof/10men behind the ball/SJ punch when a catch is possible/Hutton marauding upfield out of position or out of possesion/Hogan isolated in the very first preseason match, then surely you have to see that he needs relieving of his duties and all those coaches/board-member-football-men who stood by him need to go too. Wake me up when we are top2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 2 hours ago, DCJonah said: Given Huddersfield's status and budget I can't see why the club and fans would have turned against him. He was keeping them in the league and then this season shot up. He didn't spend a fortune and finish bottom half playing absymal football for a club and fanbase that had higher expectations. Again this comparison being made as a way to defend Bruce is just nonsense. Worth noting that the Huddlesfield team was assembled for £12m, which is less than we've paid for single players last season. Shocking mismanagement. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: Bruce has got till the 1st hoof/10men behind the ball/SJ punch when a catch is possible/Hutton marauding upfield out of position or out of possesion/Hogan isolated in the very first preseason match, then surely you have to see that he needs relieving of his duties and all those coaches/board-member-football-men who stood by him need to go too. Wow, you want to sack the ENTIRE CLUB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 14 minutes ago, briny_ear said: It's not so much about time as patience on the part of owners, board and fans. it's about understanding that there is no magic wand that can be waved to produce consistent results instantly and that even the most able of teams and managers have lapses in form. (And before the RDM revivalists start going on about how we should have been more patient with him in that case, I repeat my belief that it was not so much the results - poor as they were - that did for him, rather his complacency about the position we were in and his lack of a convincing story about how things would be improved. If Bruce is staying it's because Xia and co think he has got a convincing story on that front.) But as you say it's about earning that patience by convincing the board and the fans it will be better. We didn't need to have patience with Sherwood it was obvious what was going to happen after those 10 games. We had too much patience with Lambert and he made us worse. Wagner was provided with patience because he was meeting the expectations of the board and the fans. I'd say bottom half in the championship failed to meet the expectations hence some don't have much patience with him. He's shown nothing to suggest patience will result in promotion next season. Ultimately he will be here next year to start with and I'd imagine Xia's patience will run out after a short time if we continue how we finished the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 30, 2017 Author Share Posted May 30, 2017 2 hours ago, DCJonah said: Given Huddersfield's status and budget I can't see why the club and fans would have turned against him. He was keeping them in the league and then this season shot up. He didn't spend a fortune and finish bottom half playing absymal football for a club and fanbase that had higher expectations. Again this comparison being made as a way to defend Bruce is just nonsense. How is it nonsense when briny is presenting facts that tbe win ratios are similar. Yes they spent less and jts a great achievement for them but he has had more than a season. Bruce has had a half a season Im willing to give him abit more time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 30, 2017 Author Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Grasshopper said: The reality is Wagner supporters have a leg to stand on. Bruce supporters dont even have a pot to piss in. In contention up to Xmas, major selection errors and loads of playing issues that meant he lost his way. v Hung around the playoffs and saw it through Will you still be saying that if we go up next season and huddesfield finish bottom? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supervillan78 Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Grasshopper said: The reality is Wagner supporters have a leg to stand on. Bruce supporters dont even have a pot to piss in. In contention up to Xmas, major selection errors and loads of playing issues that meant he lost his way. v Hung around the playoffs and saw it through I don't see it that way... Huddersfield had a pretty well established manager and a stable squad that have been playing together for a while. Villa changed managers partway through the season and made significant personnel charges in both transfer windows. Naturally some players took longer to settle than others. Our star striker was also unavailable for selection in January, which damaged our promotion chances even further. Huddersfield had some shocking results towards the end of the season, and you could argue that they blew the chance to get automatic promotion and just about squeaked through via the playoffs. I think we'll be much, much better next season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 22 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Will you still be saying that if we go up next season and huddesfield finish bottom? Thats 2 points 1 - I dont think we will go up if Bruce stays 2 - Considering we accumilated half the points that Norwich did in our last PL season, I think Hudds will better that as I think their team is better than our shower was. If it's enough to come down again, so be it. But they made it there. We didnt. simple fact. Our "pull" would/should mean that a PL-Aston Villa attract a better class of player. As of now Hudds have - a setup/Board/manager/coaches and players that can compete in the CH and get promoted as of now Aston Villa DONT Hudds have the opportunity to spend and find a setup.... for the PL Aston Villa DONT If they stay up or come down I really dont care I do care what happens to Aston Villa though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted May 30, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 30, 2017 I think we will go up if Bruce stays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alakagom Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) The fact that some are judging Huddersfield playstale based on one game in playoff final worth 200mn that was always gonna be scrappy affair is **** unreal I mean seriously I wanna puke Edited May 30, 2017 by Alakagom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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