Steve Bruce

[mykeyb]

9 hours ago, Tommo_b said:

I could not envisage Wagner or Rowett finishing above Aston Villla next season, not because I think less of them, but because our manager has actually won promotion from this division.

lets see in 12 months time then.

[mykeyb]

45 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

 

Irrespective of what people think about Bruce as our manager in the short or long term the simple truth is that we really can't change manager yet again.

There have been many many things wrong at the club over the last 10 years including a succession of poor managerial appointments.

Now people may feel that Bruce is another one, fair enough, I wouldn't personally agree but everyone has their own view. He wouldn't actually have been my choice but he is in post now, has bought well and the results have improved even if the performances haven't been particularly eye catching.

But he is a man with a proven track record of promotion and that is our only aim, so I'm happy going into next season with him at the helm to try and achieve that.

We need some stability, we need a manager with his own squad and not one that constantly has to look after the one put together by the previous incumbent who lasted less than 12 months.

I see Bruce as a man who can get us up and probably keep us up, not much more but that is a worry for another day.

Next season is hugely important for all sorts of reasons, the absolute last thing we need is to go into it with a different manager trying to embed his own ideas or build his own squad.

You make many very astute points which are hard to disagree with Trent, stability is something that as a club we strive for, my issue is I dont see Bruce as a man capable of anything more than reaching the play-offs at best, I feel he is very limited and we run the risk of repeating the issue of last year where we had the wrong man in charge and by the time the axe was swung it was too late.

I do think for many fans both pro and anti Bruce he will have to get off to a good start otherwise he will feel the pressure from the home fans.

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, mykeyb said:

 I dont see Bruce as a man capable of anything more than reaching the play-offs at best

Why do you think this? Genuine question.

As I showed earlier, he's already produced play off form (bar maybe a couple of points), that's despite the awful run we had in January.
So even if he is incapable of improving us further, then even his current record over a whole season would probably see us make the play offs.

So I'm curious as to why you see it as what he could produce "at best".

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Ingram85 said:

I hate people sometimes. 

All of 'em?

[TrentVilla]

30 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

You make many very astute points which are hard to disagree with Trent, stability is something that as a club we strive for, my issue is I dont see Bruce as a man capable of anything more than reaching the play-offs at best, I feel he is very limited and we run the risk of repeating the issue of last year where we had the wrong man in charge and by the time the axe was swung it was too late.

I do think for many fans both pro and anti Bruce he will have to get off to a good start otherwise he will feel the pressure from the home fans.

Stability is vital in all clubs, particularly Championship ones it would seem. I saw a stat recently that said only a tiny number of clubs have been promoted having changed their manager during a season. (I won't state the number as I may have remembered it incorrectly and I can't locate it)

Despite this I was very very early in calling for Di Matteo to go, because stability must go hand in hand with having a good manager in place.

Now people will have different opinions on if Bruce is a good manager and indeed even those who think he is good will differ on how good they think he is.

Personally I think he is good but limited but that his limitations are such that he is good enough to achieve our current level of ambition. 

I don't agree with your view he is only good enough to go up by the Play off's.

I think we would run more of a risk of repeating this season should we go into this season with a manager other than Bruce.

There are no guarantees of promotion under Bruce but I do think continuing under him offers our best hope.

We need a good start, it's vital as this season showed and hopefully we can get one under him. We shall see, or at least I hope we do because I really don't want another change and I can't see who we would get wmin that would offer us more and not need time and cause mass upheaval in the squad again.

[Godders]

49 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Why do you think this? Genuine question.

As I showed earlier, he's already produced play off form (bar maybe a couple of points), that's despite the awful run we had in January.
So even if he is incapable of improving us further, then even his current record over a whole season would probably see us make the play offs.

So I'm curious as to why you see it as what he could produce "at best".

I am also genuinly interested in @mykeyb reasons for reaching this conclusion.

Adding to what Stevo has said, Bruce has proved time and again that he gets teams promoted from this league, most recently last year, so I'm also genuinely interested to understand what has changed in 10 months to suggest that next season, Bruce could be the "wrong man in charge" if priority number 1 is promotion.

[astonaidan]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Apropos of nothing, Bruce's PPG since he joined would give us 72 points over a full season.

That is more or less play off points. Probably a couple of points short (it was 74 points last season for example)

But that includes our horrendous run in January, so I think it's a fairly safe assumption that even if we fail to improve at all next season, we'll be looking at Playoffs as a minimum.

 

Obviously automatic is the goal, and really what should be expected next season. I don't see any reason why we won't be up there challenging for those top two places.

Why is our horrible form in January over looked, but our winning streak hyped up. He was the manager for both spells. Theres a awful amount of selective thinking

[BOF]

1 minute ago, astonaidan said:

Why is our horrible form in January over looked, but our winning streak hyped up. He was the manager for both spells. Theres a awful amount of selective thinking

I'd say firstly it's because January was before we had bought our completed/current squad and secondly because the African Cup of Nations took our main striker, which it won't be doing next season.  So that's 2 fairly reasonable caveats when looking at January's results with a fair eye.

[TrentVilla]

3 minutes ago, astonaidan said:

Why is our horrible form in January over looked, but our winning streak hyped up. He was the manager for both spells. Theres a awful amount of selective thinking

I don't think it is over looked, it certainly wasn't at the time.

I don't though think both spells are on a par in terms of the relevance to how Bruce is currently viewed.

For a start the run of good form is current and so more relevant than a run of poor form 3 months ago. Were they the other way around I doubt people would be pointing back to good form in January.

In addition you need to apply context. In January we were without Kodjia and now he is available, the difference that has made in both periods can't be ignored.

Then you have the fact that players that only arrived in January are now having an impact in a way they didn't then.

Then look at the difference in the defence between the two periods.

You can call it selective thinking if you wish, I don't think it's anything of the sort. 

[astonaidan]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

I'd say firstly it's because January was before we had bought our completed/current squad and secondly because the African Cup of Nations took our main striker, which it won't be doing next season.  So that's 2 fairly reasonable caveats when looking at January's results with a fair eye.

But we still had a decent squad at the time, there was decent results when he took over. Why do we ignore them for example. You see there is no logic being applied in a lot of peoples post. Its bullshit using the fact we didnt have Kodija, other teams didnt have players for a spell a good manager finds a way, doesnt just check out for the month while he was gone. If anything January really shows Bruce for what he is. The fact that one player gone and he cant win

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, mykeyb said:

You make many very astute points which are hard to disagree with Trent, stability is something that as a club we strive for, my issue is I dont see Bruce as a man capable of anything more than reaching the play-offs at best, I feel he is very limited and we run the risk of repeating the issue of last year where we had the wrong man in charge and by the time the axe was swung it was too late.

I do think for many fans both pro and anti Bruce he will have to get off to a good start otherwise he will feel the pressure from the home fans.

How does that differ for anyone else who might be in charge?

[astonaidan]

1 minute ago, TrentVilla said:

I don't think it is over looked, it certainly wasn't at the time.

I don't though think both spells are on a par in terms of the relevance to how Bruce is currently viewed.

For a start the run of good form is current and so more relevant than a run of poor form 3 months ago. Were they the other way around I doubt people would be pointing back to good form in January.

In addition you need to apply context. In January we were without Kodjia and now he is available, the difference that has made in both periods can't be ignored.

Then you have the fact that players that only arrived in January are now having an impact in a way they didn't then.

Then look at the difference in the defence between the two periods.

You can call it selective thinking if you wish, I don't think it's anything of the sort. 

Ok so Im going to use your point about Kodija, so your saying the fact one player wasnt available is reason enough for him to have a crap month. That is a weak defence. What about the results we had when he took over with the January signings. All the January run and recent run show is that Kodija has been bailing out Bruce. How did he set the team up when the big man went off against Burton. High **** balls to Horgan

[TrentVilla]

Just now, astonaidan said:

Ok so Im going to use your point about Kodija, so your saying the fact one player wasnt available is reason enough for him to have a crap month. That is a weak defence. What about the results we had when he took over with the January signings. All the January run and recent run show is that Kodija has been bailing out Bruce. How did he set the team up when the big man went off against Burton. High **** balls to Horgan

No that isn't what I was saying.

Out of interest who is Horgan?

[astonaidan]

Just now, TrentVilla said:

No that isn't what I was saying.

Out of interest who is Horgan?

Hogan, it autocorrect sorry

No you used January and Kodija as reasons, for me they are weak reasons, selective thinking. If thats not what your saying I apologize thats how I read it 

[BOF]

6 minutes ago, astonaidan said:

But we still had a decent squad at the time, there was decent results when he took over. Why do we ignore them for example. You see there is no logic being applied in a lot of peoples post. Its bullshit using the fact we didnt have Kodija, other teams didnt have players for a spell a good manager finds a way, doesnt just check out for the month while he was gone. If anything January really shows Bruce for what he is. The fact that one player gone and he cant win

If you're completely resistant to that answer to your question and you think it's "bullshit" that losing your top (only?) scorer whilst still in the process of rebuilding a squad might explain a bad run then I think you've gone beyond logic and reason and you've already reached your conclusions with no desire to discuss it.  So I think we're done

[astonaidan]

4 minutes ago, BOF said:

If you're completely resistant to that answer to your question and you think it's "bullshit" that losing your top (only?) scorer whilst still in the process of rebuilding a squad might explain a bad run then I think you've gone beyond logic and reason and you've already reached your conclusions with no desire to discuss it.  So I think we're done

Yes I think losing one player is a weak excuse. Are you completely resistant to the fact that Bruces has failed in his one month without that player, whats funny is ye use Kodija as a reason for January failure while ignoring he pretty much bailed us out constantly on the winning streak.  I fear to think had we not had the big man for this season. I think were done, a great way to leave a conversation you know youve lost

Edited April 10, 2017 by astonaidan

[TrentVilla]

Just now, astonaidan said:

Hogan, it autocorrect sorry

No you used January and Kodija as reasons, for me they are weak reasons, selective thinking. If thats not what your saying I apologize thats how I read it 

It's not selective thinking, it's called context. I've given context to the two runs to explain why they are given different significance, you don't have to agree but it's not weak reasoning or selective thinking.

[Tommo_b]

2 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

Will do .

Ps . I noticed no mention of the budgets those two managers worked under in comparison to ours , but never mind. 

I don't really see the need to concern myself with budgets, as long as next season we get promoted I really don't care if our team spent ten times as much as the next team, if the board can afford it without saddling the club with debt. 

Plus ive no idea nor care how much Leeds have spent, why would I?! 

Because spurs, Liverpool, Man City, United, Chelsea, Arsenal etc all spent more money then Leicester last season, does that suddenly mean Ranieri is better then those managers at those clubs last season? Nah I didn't think so. 

Like I said, let's just see, I think all the Bruce out fans are wrong, you think Bruce in is wrong, no point arguing over it tho, surely you want him to prove you wrong?! Surely! Any Villa fan wants Bruce to succeed, am I not right? 

And if you cannot see that he has signed good players, and is starting to slowly turn this juggernaught back around after being in embarrassing free fall for 6/7 years then you're all lost causes, ok footballs not been great, but we are still in recovery, this was never going to be a quick fix, i hoped it would be, but I think it's been clear in hindsight that the clubs been rotten to the core for many years, and we now finally have owners and a manager who have the ability to stop the rot, do I think Wagner or Rowett could do the job Bruce has done.... not at all, we would most likely still be in freefall, it's a completely different and harder task facing Bruce and we have the right man for us right now. 

Maybe in 4 years Wagner would be the right man, but he isn't the right man now, we have the right man for what we need and I suggest we all just get on with supporting the team and enjoy the fact the future looks a lot brighter then it did a year ago.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Tommo_b

[BOF]

Just now, astonaidan said:

Yes I think losing one player is a weak excuse. Are you completely resistant to the fact that Bruces has failed in his one month without that player, whats funny is ye use Kodija as a reason for January failure while ignoring he pretty much bailed us out constantly on the winning streak.  I fear to think had we not had the big man for this season.

We are a work in progress.  The previous 6 seasons are a testament to that.  We are looking to improve.  We are actually improving.  We're on an upwards curve.  We are far from a finished article.  When you're looking to get somewhere, it is what you've done most recently that is most relevant, because that's a reflection of where things are heading.  In that sense I think Bruce has more than steadied the ship amnd we're now heading for promotion next season.  If you've come out the other side of a storm and all you can do is keep going on about the big waves that happened 3 months ago then I would wonder why you are ignoring what's happening now and what has been happening for the past 2 or 3 months.  Your posts suggest it is because your mind is not for changing, and that's not really a discussion.

[astonaidan]

2 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

It's not selective thinking, it's called context. I've given context to the two runs to explain why they are given different significance, you don't have to agree but it's not weak reasoning or selective thinking.

Well I think its weak reasoning and selective thinking. That christmas spell is constantly used a reason as why wed do better, when that was the one time he had to do without Kodija and failed epically