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Delete this thread if needed but someone made a great suggestion as far as the Dalian Atkinson thread was concerned to take the discussion here rather than fill up a thread full of wonderful memories with arguments about Taser use.

Here if anyone is interested is the IPCC review of Taser complaints and incidents 2004 - 2013:
https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/guidelines_reports/Taser_report_final_2014.pdf

 

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When you have a hammer, you'll suddenly find lots of nails.

There absolutely are usage cases for tasers. But I'd wager police use them more than they might otherwise need to. I suspect many cases that the handbook might say would require an officer to actually man handle an individual has now become an opportunity to bring the taser out.

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I've been a Police officer in Australia for 3 years, but I haven't actually drawn my taser or been at a situation where someone else has drawn one.

(for that matter i've never drawn my baton, spray or firearm either, the vast majority of people can be talked down or taken down with bare hands)

The rule over here is that you'd only taser someone you'd otherwise be shooting, apart from in a self harm scenario, where we obviously would taser to stop someone cutting themselves or whatever.

For me to consider tasering someone, they'd either need to be holding a weapon or be so much bigger than me physically that the taser was my only option, and in that situation i'd be looking at spray first anyway. I don't believe the taser is something that needs to come out unless the subject has a weapon and is being aggressive with it towards himself or others.

That said, I absolutely want to have it as an option. We only have 1 taser between a patrol pairing over here, and i'll always choose to wear it if I can. I'd rather not have to shoot someone if I can get away with it.

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For @Ingram85, and anyone else who's interested, here is an article about the growing use of tasers in UK psychiatric institutions; I've just quioted the relevant bits but it is a longer read with relevant points.

https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2016/jul/18/tasers-have-no-place-in-mental-health-care

Quote

 for more than 10 years, Tasers have been used against patents in locked psychiatric settings, with such practices going unmonitored or investigated by the Care Quality Commission or the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the public body responsible for handling complaints against the police.

The use of police weaponry against detained patients is part of a much bigger problem.

A Guardian freedom of information request on the police response to calls for help from staff at psychiatric units spotlights the pressures on an overburdened system. The staggering 617 emergency 999 calls by one London trust in the past 12 months is indicative of a more pressing dilemma.

What we seeing is a health service relying on a forensic solution to meet clinical need, and yet policing really has no place in mental healthcare. The home affairs select committee’s inquiry report into policing and mental health (pdf) highlighted concerns about the over reliance on police resources to plug this care gap in psychiatric services.

...

Those with a serious mental health condition can become agitated or upset when experiencing psychosis or mania and they may appear aggressive, but this symptom of an illness, not violent criminal behaviour. There is a need to dispel the myth that this group of patients are dangerous.

Both Department of Health and policing guidance (pdf) states that “people with mental ill health rarely commit serious crimes and are at greater risk of becoming victims of crime than the general population”.

(Being the Guardian, it is badly edited in a couple of places of course.)

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I'm not saying it hasn't happened but I've worked in the mental health service for 9 years. Forensic, ICU, PoS/Street Triage, Acute, Rehab, Ive done it all and have seen many instances where police assistance has been required and never once, not a single time, have I seen a taser been used or even heard it reported that a taser has been used and I've been a part of some really threatening/dangerous situations so I can confirm that that Guardian report is very inaccurate as far as some mental health patients are dangerous, if they weren't then why the need for high security forensic units? 

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On 17/08/2016 at 21:45, Chindie said:

When you have a hammer, you'll suddenly find lots of nails.

There absolutely are usage cases for tasers. But I'd wager police use them more than they might otherwise need to. I suspect many cases that the handbook might say would require an officer to actually man handle an individual has now become an opportunity to bring the taser out.

Super post,  they just want the Police to be as non-contact as they can possibly make it.  They will role out the "1000's of Police officers risk their lives daily" thing but do they, do they really.

If risking your life entails shooting and killing people from a distance even if you out-number the "alleged offender" then why not just sit in the Police car and do it with the doors locked and the window down a little bit.  They might as well start employing midgets for the Police and give them all tasers.  If the best they could think of in that situation was to take a member of the public's life then I feel sorry for everyone involved.  Crimewatch will be on at some point with them begging for help in truly shocking crimes,  so begging for help from the people of Birmingham for example,  minus 1 obviously.   All Dutch Police have GUNS ffs, hardly ever need to use them, every single time I have dealt with the Dutch plod they have been brilliant, even when I was in the wrong.  Give a British plod a taser and he thinks he's Ironman.  words removed.

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 If the best they could think of in that situation was to take a member of the public's life then I feel sorry for everyone involved.

You think they intended to kill him? The record of the police in this country is pretty decent when it comes to deaths after police contact.

By all accounts Dalian had gone **** mental, and given a clear indication he was a danger to others. Could he possibly have been taken down without a taser being used? Maybe, but when he kept coming at police despite being told to stop, he was covered in blood, and had already claimed to have murdered people, frankly I can understand the police using force.

I doubt there was any intention whatsoever to take a member of the public's life, but you say it like Dalian was some sort of innocent bystander.

 

Quote

 

His brother, Kenroy, 53, said the former Premier League player had undergone dialysis for kidney failure and was “not in his right mind”.

He said his brother had attacked their 85-year-old father, Ernest, at his home on Monday before police were called to the scene. “My brother had lost it. He was in a manic state and depressed – out of his mind and ranting. He had a tube in his shoulder for the dialysis and he had ripped it out and was covered in blood,” he told the Sun. “He got Dad by the throat and said he was going to kill him. He told Dad he had already killed me, our brother, Paul, and sister, Elaine, and he had come for him. He was not in his right mind.”

 

 

Edited by Davkaus
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6 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

 

You think they intended to kill him? The record of the police in this country is pretty decent when it comes to deaths after police contact.

By all accounts Dalian had gone **** mental, and given a clear indication he was a danger to others. Could he possibly have been taken down without a taser being used? Maybe, but when he kept coming at police despite being told to stop, he was covered in blood, and had already claimed to have murdered people, frankly I can understand the police using force.

I doubt there was any intention whatsoever to take a member of the public's life, but you say it like Dalian was some sort of innocent bystander.

 

 

Imagine if they had no tasers,  what would be the worst possible outcome considering they outnumbered the target.

They intended to protect themselves at what ever cost.  If they had a gun they would have shot him simple as that IMO.

They made a choice,  nick him and we might end up with a couple of bumps and bruises or keep the plasters in the tin and attack him with 50,000 volts,  a choice they KNOW might kill him.

Edited by Amsterdam_Neil_D
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1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

 

You think they intended to kill him? The record of the police in this country is pretty decent when it comes to deaths after police contact.

By all accounts Dalian had gone **** mental, and given a clear indication he was a danger to others. Could he possibly have been taken down without a taser being used? Maybe, but when he kept coming at police despite being told to stop, he was covered in blood, and had already claimed to have murdered people, frankly I can understand the police using force.

I doubt there was any intention whatsoever to take a member of the public's life, but you say it like Dalian was some sort of innocent bystander.

 

 

Mmmmmmm 

I think we should wait for the 'independent' (is it really?) report. 

Because you say by 'all accounts' which isn't true. 

One account said he was tasered several times, kicked whilst on the ground and tasered again. And not one account suggests he was armed with anything. If that's the case, it's manslaughter (or at least it would be for Joe public)

I don't think they intended to kill him, but I think there's at least a chance they used far more force than was required and if so, the investigation will need to ascertain if race was a factor. 

My own view (and I fully admit this is pure speculation and based on my general distrust of police in this country) is that they went to town in a random black guy, didn't realise he was semi famous and shit just got real for them. 

The answer to all of this is mandatory body cams for ALL field based officers. Protect the genuinely good cops who act correctly and give the corrupt nowhere to hide. 

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42 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

I think we should wait for the 'independent' (is it really?) report.

The IPCC has been criticised for many years, including by a committee of MPs.  Criticisms include having many ex-police among its staff, creating a suspicion that they may lack the objectivity needed to investigate the police.  It's not a body that inspires a great deal of confidence.

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1 hour ago, wazzap24 said:

My own view (and I fully admit this is pure speculation and based on my general distrust of police in this country) is that they went to town in a random black guy, didn't realise he was semi famous and shit just got real for them. 

 

I suspect this is very close to the truth,  we will see.  They will get off anyway, guilty or not.

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15 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

I've been a Police officer in Australia for 3 years, but I haven't actually drawn my taser or been at a situation where someone else has drawn one.

(for that matter i've never drawn my baton, spray or firearm either, the vast majority of people can be talked down or taken down with bare hands)

The rule over here is that you'd only taser someone you'd otherwise be shooting, apart from in a self harm scenario, where we obviously would taser to stop someone cutting themselves or whatever.

For me to consider tasering someone, they'd either need to be holding a weapon or be so much bigger than me physically that the taser was my only option, and in that situation i'd be looking at spray first anyway. I don't believe the taser is something that needs to come out unless the subject has a weapon and is being aggressive with it towards himself or others.

That said, I absolutely want to have it as an option. We only have 1 taser between a patrol pairing over here, and i'll always choose to wear it if I can. I'd rather not have to shoot someone if I can get away with it.

It's because you are still relatively green . In a few years you'll be tasering anyone with a tan and planting crack on them like a champ . 

You'll get there . 

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On 19/08/2016 at 21:07, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Imagine if they had no tasers,  what would be the worst possible outcome considering they outnumbered the target.

They intended to protect themselves at what ever cost.  If they had a gun they would have shot him simple as that IMO.

They made a choice,  nick him and we might end up with a couple of bumps and bruises or keep the plasters in the tin and attack him with 50,000 volts,  a choice they KNOW might kill him.

 

If I believed someone had a knife or whatever and was a genuine and immediate danger of hurting me or one of my colleagues or another member of the public, i'd taser him straight away, or shoot him. Especially given that he is covered in blood and the information Police had at the time might well have indicated that he'd killed someone already.

The worst possible outcome is that Dalian pulls a knife from his pocket and kills someone else while Police stand there and hope for the best. I've never seen a Police officer stabbed, but an officer in the station I work was killed in exactly those circumstances years before I started, trying to wrestle with a guy who pulled a knife and killed him. I've been involved in jobs where someone wriggled free and sent a Police officer to hospital. Police officers have the right to protect themselves and go home to their families.

I wouldn't use a taser unless I knew someone had a weapon, but that officer had a man who he may well have believed had just murdered someone, in front of him, covered in blood and refusing all instructions to back away. It's pretty easy in hindsight to say they should have just grabbed him but it's impossible to know without being there.

 

For all the fearmongering about tasers, they are a less lethal option than a firearm and they save a lot of lives in situations where people would have been shot by Police before tasers existed.

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10 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

For all the fearmongering about tasers, they are a less lethal option than a firearm and they save a lot of lives in situations where people would have been shot by Police before tasers existed.

To be fair you have written a good defence of the Police but the fact is a man is dead from the non-lethal option,  it's almost as if he was possibly kicked in the head after the tasers by some eye witness accounts.  We will see the the IPCC (Independent lol) report comes out.  Would you still defend them then if that was actually the case , what do you think should happen if that was proved to be true ?(Retraining,  bit of paid leave?)  In my world that is manslaughter,  possibly murder if someone is actually unconscious and not even moving ?  

What if they were/are the bad apples that we know exist.  I am not having a pop but to give it all balance.  You might be wrong as I might be but making them out to all be there for good of the public is fairy tales IMO.  

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