ThunderPower_14 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 18 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: To be fair you have written a good defence of the Police but the fact is a man is dead from the non-lethal option, it's almost as if he was possibly kicked in the head after the tasers by some eye witness accounts. We will see the the IPCC (Independent lol) report comes out. Would you still defend them then if that was actually the case , what do you think should happen if that was proved to be true ?(Retraining, bit of paid leave?) In my world that is manslaughter, possibly murder if someone is actually unconscious and not even moving ? What if they were/are the bad apples that we know exist. I am not having a pop but to give it all balance. You might be wrong as I might be but making them out to all be there for good of the public is fairy tales IMO. Unless you're acting in fairly desparate self defence, there is no reason to kick someone in the head ever. I'm definitely not arguing that the Police involved aren't at fault, i'm just saying it's not outrageous that a taser was deployed given the circumstances. If they've tasered him and then kicked him to the head while he was on the ground, i'd support criminal action against them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 If this incident is used to have tasers taken away from Police, i'd imagine that death and serious injury resulting from Police incidents that turn violent would increase, not decrease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2016 59 minutes ago, ThunderPower_14 said: If this incident is used to have tasers taken away from Police, i'd imagine that death and serious injury resulting from Police incidents that turn violent would increase, not decrease. Why? Genuine question. Has there been a demonstrated decrease in such deaths since their introduction? Also has there been a corresponding increase in such incidents to warrant the increase in usage? Or are Police simply taking an easy option? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 On 23/08/2016 at 16:33, TrentVilla said: Why? Genuine question. Has there been a demonstrated decrease in such deaths since their introduction? Also has there been a corresponding increase in such incidents to warrant the increase in usage? Or are Police simply taking an easy option? I can only base my opinions on my experience in Australia, and i'll freely admit I don't have any statistics to back that opinion up. In Australia people get tasered when they would otherwise be shot, ie have a weapon and are acting in an aggressive manner which means lives are in immediate danger. Or alternatively, when they are self harming with a weapon and Police are unable to get close to them because of the danger of the weapon. On both occasions, the taser is a less lethal option. I haven't been involved in a situation where a taser has been drawn but the situations where I have heard they have been drawn and deployed by someone at my station, have been against people either self harming with blades, or people being aggressive with weapons where other Police officers had firearms drawn. On both occasions the taser ended ongoing violence and injury. I'm pretty sure in the UK, your general patrols don't carry firearms, so the taser would be your most serious option for general Police officers. That changes things up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 BBC Quote A founder of a group improving race relations with police was Tasered in the face by officers who mistook him for a wanted man for the second time. Footage filmed by a neighbour shows Judah Adunbi, 63, outside his Bristol home when he is stopped by police. Mr Adunbi refused to give his name and after a dispute was Tasered in the face by officers who tried to arrest him. It is the second time Mr Adunbi has been mistaken for the same man. A neighbour of Mr Adunbi filmed the second incident, which took place outside his home in the Easton area of Bristol on 14 January. The video shows the two officers approaching Mr Adunbi while returning from a walk with his dog. They give the name of the wanted man and ask if that is him. When he says he is not that man, they ask for his name, which he declines to give. Mr Adunbi says he refused because he is "not a criminal" and was "just going about my business". Officers tried to arrest him as he walked into his back garden and then Tasered him. Hard to see the introduction of tasers into British society as any sort of success with incidents like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Does it say if the info given to cops was that the suspect was armed and dangerous? If not then they should be dealt with by law. But why not just tell them his name? If I'm a cop and I have a potential violent suspect (hence the taser use I imagine) that fits a description who is refusing to i.d himself id be overly cautious and self preserving too. If it turns out the information given to cops was that this guy wasn't armed or dangerous then that's a can of worms I'm glad I'm not getting involved with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 27 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: But why not just tell them his name? Mr Adunbi says he refused because he is "not a criminal" and was "just going about my business". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) But when cops are shouting at you with tasers and what not, just tell them your name ffs. If you haven't done anything wrong then no worries isn't it? I know he doesn't legally have to but ffs... Edited January 20, 2017 by Ingram85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: But when cops are shouting at you with tasters and what not, just tell them your name ffs. If you haven't done anything wrong then no worries isn't it? I know he doesn't legally have to but ffs... Have you ever been threatened with an appetiser? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post peterms Posted January 20, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: But when cops are shouting at you with tasters and what not, just tell them your name ffs. If you haven't done anything wrong then no worries isn't it? I know he doesn't legally have to but ffs... When you are outside your house, keys in hand, fully aware of your legal rights, and some idiot in a uniform makes illegal demands of you, will you a) comply for fear of being killed, or b ) insist that your legal rights are respected? I really hope that most people want the second option and are prepared to stand up for it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ingram85 said: If you haven't done anything wrong then no worries isn't it? I'm astonished that people still come out with this sort of stuff. Going back to the story, if it has been reported correctly (an important rider, I know) then this was the second time that the same man had been mistaken for the same wanted man and that, after the previous occasion, he won a wrongful arrest case against Avon and Somerset Constabulary. It may be the case that he was a bit pissed off with being put in the same position 8 years later. As Peter has said above, people should demand that their legal rights are respected by the police and not just kowtow because it's someone in a uniform with their taser unholstered. Edited January 21, 2017 by snowychap 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 Not good at all and no saving graces it seems. They had the gall to charge him with assaulting a police officer and a public order offence. I miss the Rule of Law. What the hell are we supposed to do when sane adults will see this and make excuses along the lines of "just comply" and "nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong"? Try getting dragged out of your garden gate and tasered in the face and then warned about the taser already in your face coming at your face 5 seconds ago. For walking your dog and telling the police you're not the man they're looking for, (Something you would have thought they had considered based on the fact they had already mistaken him for the same man in 2009 when he won a wrongful arrest case against A&S Police and got compensation) while going back into your house and being obstructed from doing so on a public highway, assaulted on your own property by trespassers, before being tasered at close quarters for not giving answer to a question that the public servants deemed appropriate? The fear was that like absolutely everything before it once it's an available tool it will be used for more and more incidents of ever decreasing severity. ED-209 "You have 20 seconds to comply" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) It's not about bowing down to the police and that's not what I insinuated either, we are talking about a very specific situation here so to throw general statements like 'making excuses of just comply' is just unnecessary. I wouldn't do it in every situation but in this particular instance my thinking is if I'm going to get tasered in the face by an insane unhinged cop then maybe if I tell him my name then I might not get tasered in the face? Not that hard to understand right? Anyone can google my name and address so the anonymity of it all is meaningless, trying to dissuade a complete lunatic in police uniform would be my primary concern and then complain/sue afterwards. Im not prepared to get tasered in the face and suffer the potential consequences/complications of getting tasered in the face over not giving my name which is something anyone can find out with very little effort but for the evidently black & white thinkers in this thread (and needlessly aggressive too), I add that in most other situations I probably would challenge the police over having to identify myself without cause to. Tl:dr In 99% of circumstances I wouldn't give police my name without cause to, in THIS instance at the risk of being tasered by a nut job I'd probably swallow my pride and tell them info that is easily obtained elsewhere to, y'know, NOT get tasered in the face. If you'd die to protect your easily gotten name over getting tasered in the face over pride then you are quite simply a **** idiot. Edited January 21, 2017 by Ingram85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Ingram85 said: swallow my pride and tell them info In isolation this is not a problem on a personal level, forget it and move on. The problems arise when it's starts to 100's, then 1000's of people been forced to basically cower to the Police and jump when told. They forget that this chips away over time and then you end up with Brixton, Toxteth and Handsworth with a copper chopped up. They have the benefit of hindsight here and things like this don't do them any favours. In the Youtube world they cannot make mistakes like this as the chip away effect is multiplied by the internet and things can go wrong in an hour or 2 (Like the recent riots showed us). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 6 hours ago, Ingram85 said: I wouldn't do it in every situation but in this particular instance my thinking is if I'm going to get tasered in the face by an insane unhinged cop then maybe if I tell him my name then I might not get tasered in the face? I might share that view if I were somewhere like Brazil or the US, where the police can seemingly murder people with impunity. The idea that refusing to give your name might result in this kind of assault, which could have blinded or killed him, is so far from what is reasonable, that it is weird to think that anyone should be expecting such an assault and act accordingly. We should not act as though we live in a police state, and we should not normalise these random acts of armed aggression. We should demand that such people are disciplined and taken off the streets. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 On 22/08/2016 at 06:42, maqroll said: who is the other guy with enfield, he's really funny too What/ have you NEVER seen The Fast Show??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 @Ingram85 I wasn't accusing you of anything mate. I was a little drunk about 2:30am when I posted it so maybe its just more ranty than normal No one individual is "sane adults" Again though the problem with your reasoning for me is where does it stop? I too in this and every instance would just tell the police my name. I wouldn't argue in the street, I wouldn't push against them to get to my house. But what if they want proof? I do not carry photo id. What if they didn't believe me? Are we going to arrest people to make them prove who they are? I am pleased that in the UK we are able to have this debate about tasers. In the US they are having the exact same debate but about APC's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: @Ingram85 I wasn't accusing you of anything mate. I was a little drunk about 2:30am when I posted it so maybe its just more ranty than normal No one individual is "sane adults" Again though the problem with your reasoning for me is where does it stop? I too in this and every instance would just tell the police my name. I wouldn't argue in the street, I wouldn't push against them to get to my house. But what if they want proof? I do not carry photo id. What if they didn't believe me? Are we going to arrest people to make them prove who they are? I am pleased that in the UK we are able to have this debate about tasers. In the US they are having the exact same debate but about APC's. No worries chap, my reasoning as stated in my last post is very very specific to the situation of a crazy cop who I don't trust to be thinking straight about to taser my face. I've said in almost all other situations, I probably wouldn't give my name but if it's between that and a taser to the mushki then the crazy cop gets my name THEN I will deal with disciplining/suing/legal stuff after. @peterms read what I've put above, I'm not normalising the situation at all and don't think this is acceptable at all, ALL I'm saying is that if I found myself in that very situation I'd take the hit to my dignity and give my name so I don't get tasered in the face. I'm fully aware that this should not happen nor do I believe it happens regularly or normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ingram85 said: In 99% of circumstances I wouldn't give police my name without cause to, in THIS instance at the risk of being tasered by a nut job I'd probably swallow my pride and tell them info that is easily obtained elsewhere to, y'know, NOT get tasered in the face. If you'd die to protect your easily gotten name over getting tasered in the face over pride then you are quite simply a **** idiot. It's not about 'protecting his easily gotten name', it's about standing up for himself. I agree it's not going to be helpful if you get aggressive with plod and start shouting and swearing at them but I haven't suffered harassment from the police or gone through a situation where I may have been arrested having been mistaken for another man and then a decade later thought crap it's happening again so I can't put myself in the shoes of this particular bloke (again that's assuming that the reports are all correct) in that respect. I guess, however, I'd be pretty pissed off and largely very uncooperative. Whether or not going further than saying, "No, I'm not **** Royston Whoever" and saying. "I'm not Royston Whoever, I'm Johnny Upyourarse" is going to actually dissuade a woman copper from using the taser that she already has drawn and ready for action is another matter. In practical terms, if they have a reasonable suspicion to believe that he is Royston then they need to arrest him (as they say) and then they'd be releasing him from the nick once they'd established his actual identity (either by him saying or them going through his belongings or confirming it some other way) . I find it interesting that a major criticism is of the guy not telling them his name (it's not just you who has made that - I've seen it in comments on the local rag linked from the Beeb page) and not of the police firing a taser in his face (and whether she's following the 'guidelines') or why they've stopped a bloke believing him to be this other guy for a second time. Surely what we want are situations where this doesn't arise? I think that's more likely to happen if the police are focussed upon by the public reading the story to use their tasers much less frequently and not as part of procedure and not that the general public should do whatever is demanded of them by the police (even if reasonable) in order to prevent being tasered. Edited January 21, 2017 by snowychap 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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