Villa Park redevelopment

[Caravella82]

At some point change will happen with Villa Park as I believe the owners will not allow us to be left behind any club after working so quickly to turn us into a club capable of challenging the established top 6. When that change happens or in what guise, whether it be redevelopment or a new location, only time will tell.

I guess different individuals will push for their own preferences. Purslow seemed very keen for redevelopment for the European Championships while Heck, I hope has more ambitious reasons to "pause" the plans. From what I've heard from Wes Edens regarding Villa Park is that he considers it our home in a similar manner that Fenway Park is for the Boston Red Sox.

I'm still glad that the option was taken to put it on hold but purely because I think the designs could have been better. I can't help but feel that there was a complete lack of imagination or thought given to our unique heritage when compared to the planned redevelopment of Selhurst Park which appears to be a design unique to Crystal Palace but one absolutely designed in the 21st century.

Edited March 9 by Caravella82

[OutByEaster?]

8 hours ago, allani said:

I don't see how redeveloping a stand which will mean reducing our capacity significantly for two seasons (at a time when the FFP rules are tightening significantly) is feasible UNLESS we get explicit permission from UEFA and the PL for missing our financial targets.  If we can't do that then effectively we're going to struggle to fund the loss in revenue during the redevelopment phase - and if we are not going to struggle I am slightly confused how adding more seats is suddenly going to mean we have a massive boost in revenue - without impacting on the current squad - i.e. having to sell players to cover the cost of the redevelopment (in terms of the revenue lost over those 2 seasons not the construction costs).

I am hopeful that we'll significantly increase other revenue streams in the next few months (sponsorships / partnerships / etc) and maybe that will give us a bit more headroom so that the redevelopment can be reconsidered.

The FFP impact of having no North Stand is negligible - it's barely a factor. 

The North Stand brings in around £5m a year, it's 2% of our income - if we make a decent sleeve sponsorship deal this summer it'd cover it off.

I think there are all sorts of reason why they haven't gone ahead, but I don't think FFP and the lost income from the North Stand would be one of them.

[OutByEaster?]

6 hours ago, allani said:

If it is a tiny hit in the short term to close the stand whilst it is being redeveloped why do you think it will be a game changer when it opens?  The additional capacity is not double or treble what we'll miss in the next two seasons.

In terms of income - the new stand would generate more than double what the current one does - it's an increase on hospitality numbers by more than a thousand, more than 7,000 additional seats and a big chunk of GA+ - almost twice the attendance and most likely triple the income.

[T-Dog]

@OutByEaster? - thanks for breaking down the numbers for a non-financial type like me. Your posts are very informative and make lightwork of a lot of complicated terms.

[allani]

12 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

The FFP impact of having no North Stand is negligible - it's barely a factor. 

The North Stand brings in around £5m a year, it's 2% of our income - if we make a decent sleeve sponsorship deal this summer it'd cover it off.

I think there are all sorts of reason why they haven't gone ahead, but I don't think FFP and the lost income from the North Stand would be one of them.

Is that all the money it brings in or just ticket sales?  I know the facilities aren't great in the NS to put it mildly (although to be fair I think it must be at least 25 years since I went in the North Stand so I am relying on respected third party feedback) but you would imagine that 7,000 fans should be spending a few more million in and around Villa Park on match days but even if that takes it up towards the £9m mark (which would be around £25 per person for 25 home matches a season) so closer to 4% income then maybe you are right that one its own it shouldn't break our FFP planning and so maybe I have over-stated this. 

Although by the same token even if we treble the income to £27m per year that still leaves us a long way short of closing the gap to the teams above us.  But clearly an extra £20m per year is not to be dismissed lightly at all!!!!

I still don't believe that NSWE would have allowed Heck to scrap the plans just because he didn't like it.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, allani said:

Is that all the money it brings in or just ticket sales?  I know the facilities aren't great in the NS to put it mildly (although to be fair I think it must be at least 25 years since I went in the North Stand so I am relying on respected third party feedback) but you would imagine that 7,000 fans should be spending a few more million in and around Villa Park on match days but even if that takes it up towards the £9m mark (which would be around £25 per person for 25 home matches a season) so closer to 4% income then maybe you are right that one its own it shouldn't break our FFP planning and so maybe I have over-stated this. 

Although by the same token even if we treble the income to £27m per year that still leaves us a long way short of closing the gap to the teams above us.  But clearly an extra £20m per year is not to be dismissed lightly at all!!!!

I still don't believe that NSWE would have allowed Heck to scrap the plans just because he didn't like it.

I still hold faith that we've got even better plans in the pipeline and this is simply an evaluation/analysis/planning period.

We may get an even better redevelopment proposal than the last one floated. Just got to be patient and leave it up to the club imo.

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, allani said:

Is that all the money it brings in or just ticket sales?  I know the facilities aren't great in the NS to put it mildly (although to be fair I think it must be at least 25 years since I went in the North Stand so I am relying on respected third party feedback) but you would imagine that 7,000 fans should be spending a few more million in and around Villa Park on match days but even if that takes it up towards the £9m mark (which would be around £25 per person for 25 home matches a season) so closer to 4% income then maybe you are right that one its own it shouldn't break our FFP planning and so maybe I have over-stated this. 

Although by the same token even if we treble the income to £27m per year that still leaves us a long way short of closing the gap to the teams above us.  But clearly an extra £20m per year is not to be dismissed lightly at all!!!!

I still don't believe that NSWE would have allowed Heck to scrap the plans just because he didn't like it.

If you last went in the North Stand 25 years ago your experience is about as valid as someone who sat in there for the last home game, which is the issue and why it needs to be replaced so badly.

[allani]

17 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

If you last went in the North Stand 25 years ago your experience is about as valid as someone who sat in there for the last home game, which is the issue and why it needs to be replaced so badly.

That's what I thought.

[thabucks]

Given the I ineptitude of the local council and our last 2-3 owners before NSWE we are stuck at an ageing stadium which won’t be fit for purpose over the next decade etc.  with little option left to move somewhere centrally. A brand new international class multi use stadia would’ve been the catalyst for major change and investment  but they’ve squandered this opportunity somewhat and got left behind  Manchester and will also start to fall behind other more progressive minded cities. No coherent master plan for the city with acres & acres of trading estates and shoddily built and designed apartments by greedy developers seem the go to rather than leading recreational and retail facilities. 

[allani]

5 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Given the I ineptitude of the local council and our last 2-3 owners before NSWE we are stuck at an ageing stadium which won’t be fit for purpose over the next decade etc.  with little option left to move somewhere centrally. A brand new international class multi use stadia would’ve been the catalyst for major change and investment  but they’ve squandered this opportunity somewhat and got left behind  Manchester and will also start to fall behind other more progressive minded cities. No coherent master plan for the city with acres & acres of trading estates and shoddily built and designed apartments by greedy developers seem the go to rather than leading recreational and retail facilities. 

I was just reading one of the national papers and there is a whole thing in there about the Mayor of Manchester giving serious backing to the redevelopment of Old Trafford, the advantages it would bring to the city and calling on central government to get involved in funding some of the project (despite Man Utd being one of the biggest sports teams in the world - reputation wise).  Whilst I know our redevelopment did get some coverage I don't remember there being anything like the political support from the city administration (it is possible that we did and my memory is failing me).  

[spiezels]

8 hours ago, allani said:

I was just reading one of the national papers and there is a whole thing in there about the Mayor of Manchester giving serious backing to the redevelopment of Old Trafford, the advantages it would bring to the city and calling on central government to get involved in funding some of the project (despite Man Utd being one of the biggest sports teams in the world - reputation wise).  Whilst I know our redevelopment did get some coverage I don't remember there being anything like the political support from the city administration (it is possible that we did and my memory is failing me).  

Im sure he was involved wasnt he? Tory though, out next election, probably not willing to commit to much right now. 

[The Fun Factory]

11 hours ago, thabucks said:

Given the I ineptitude of the local council and our last 2-3 owners before NSWE we are stuck at an ageing stadium which won’t be fit for purpose over the next decade etc.  with little option left to move somewhere centrally. A brand new international class multi use stadia would’ve been the catalyst for major change and investment  but they’ve squandered this opportunity somewhat and got left behind  Manchester and will also start to fall behind other more progressive minded cities. No coherent master plan for the city with acres & acres of trading estates and shoddily built and designed apartments by greedy developers seem the go to rather than leading recreational and retail facilities. 

What has the council have to do with this? They have approved twice within the last 16th months of Villa redevelopment plans, and the club have canned it.

I looked again at Villa Park today and I fail to see how they can add capacity easily without a new stand given the constraints. It will either be very minimal or shoe-horned in to a poor standard. Or nothing at all.

[OutByEaster?]

Interesting to note that Everton have reported that the construction costs for their (beautiful) new stadium went up from £500m to £800m in the last two years. Given that over that period, the choice of constructers has reduced after at least one major one went bust, and the costs of materials have gone up, I think that's probably a clearer explanation as to why we paused ours than anything the club have said out loud.

If our project went from being priced at £100m to something like £180m then it might well just be a sensible decision to wait for a bit until the market is better.

 

[The Fun Factory]

41 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Interesting to note that Everton have reported that the construction costs for their (beautiful) new stadium went up from £500m to £800m in the last two years. Given that over that period, the choice of constructers has reduced after at least one major one went bust, and the costs of materials have gone up, I think that's probably a clearer explanation as to why we paused ours than anything the club have said out loud.

If our project went from being priced at £100m to something like £180m then it might well just be a sensible decision to wait for a bit until the market is better.

 

I can't see how labour and materials will magically decrease in the next five years, unless someone invents a modular stand design and we bring in cheap overseas labour.

[OutByEaster?]

15 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

I can't see how labour and materials will magically decrease in the next five years, unless someone invents a modular stand design and we bring in cheap overseas labour.

I guess there's a chance that the demands of HS2 on suppliers decrease or there's a time when no one is building and the contractors become a little bit more flexible - I don't know, it's not an industry I know a massive amount about and I guess the next five years aren't an option anyway, perhaps it just didn't make sense and we'll revisit after the Euros and see if things are easier.

[Mic09]

21 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I guess there's a chance that the demands of HS2 on suppliers decrease or there's a time when no one is building and the contractors become a little bit more flexible - I don't know, it's not an industry I know a massive amount about and I guess the next five years aren't an option anyway, perhaps it just didn't make sense and we'll revisit after the Euros and see if things are easier.

Other than the apparent large cranes which have been mentioned in the past, I can't see how our project might be affected by demands for contractors/materials for HS2. 

The more I think about it, it really isn't that big of a project. It's like building a large apartment block/office building, hundreds of which are built across the country. I would hazard a guess that considering limited indoor space (hospitality suites, toilets, media etc) is is largely a roofed over terrace with beer taps. I know nothing about construction, but my idiots logic tells me that building an office 15 storey might be a much more demanding task. 

Stadiums are being built across Europe. We are planning to build less than a quarter of a new stadium (I say less because additional infrastructure like roads etc is already there). 

Now, I can see why owners might not want to spend £100m more than they expected. Its their money. But I guess at some point something will have to be done.

 

Edited March 14 by Mic09

[Captain_Townsend]

How much more complex was the new North stand compared to say the Trinity? The old Trinity was demolished in May 2000 and the new Trinity was opened in about January 2001!

The Anfield redevelopment is a more contemporary comparison. What they did is way more complex than what we had planned. And they did it for better or worse.

Yes, the decision to demolish and then rebuild definitely complicated what we had planned and the 24 month time frame always seemed a bit nuts to me. But still, I don't think we were in any shape or form doing something that was impossible. Quite the contrary.

As always, I will put in the disclaimer here, I am not claiming to know more on this than the club - experts, geniuses etc - but the vacuum of info leads to speculation. 

Edited March 14 by Captain_Townsend

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, Captain_Townsend said:

How much more complex was the new North stand compared to say the Trinity? The old Trinity was demolished in May 2000 and the new Trinity was opened in about January 2001!

The Anfield redevelopment is a more contemporary comparison. What they did is way more complex than what we had planned. And they did it for better or worse.

As always, I will put in the disclaimer here, I am not claiming to know more on this than the club - experts, geniuses etc - but the vacuum of info leads to speculation. 

Anfield's new behind goal stand started being built in October 2021. It was finally fully opened only a few weeks ago?

Numbers wise it looks like a similar sized project, other than they haven't fully knocked down the previous stand? 

It looks like it cost in the region of £80-100m. 

 

 

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, The Fun Factory said:

I can't see how labour and materials will magically decrease in the next five years, unless someone invents a modular stand design and we bring in cheap overseas labour.

There has been a lull in construction the last year, material prices ease as demand reduces.

Materials have also been high the last couple of years due to power and transport costs which is also easing.

True they'll never go back to previous costs but they my well reduce from where they are now.

[Villa_Vids]

The official word is the redevelopment is paused because of traffic and transport, nothing has been said about construction or money. Heck has stated the club wants to increase the stadium seating bowl to 45k and invest inside Villa Park to improve the experience for "all fans" rather than just one stand. I think it is about making the existing VP financially viable and boosting revenue for the club. Serious redevelopment takes a lot of time at most football clubs, not just Villa. One step at a time?  

In the long term (along with transport upgrades and traffic management/ of course on field success and sporting progression) - I can see them producing a Villa Park resort with Villa Live, Muesum and Hotel etc - Atairos/Wes Edens have investments in companies that manage and develop these sorts of resorts and entertainment hubs. Along with new north and witton stands being built too. Is it possible for the club to buy Aston Hall and convert it into a hotel/fan park? There is lots of potential at VP when you think about it.