WhatAboutTheFinish Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 16 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Embellished? 1. Its Donald Tusk 2. It's just after he became leader of the Student Committee of Solidarity in Gdańsk, 3. Its widely accepted, but sometimes disputed that the death of Stanisław Pyjas was suspicious. 4. As it was believed the death was suspicious then anyone taking that position would believe they would be risking their life. Where is the embellishment? 1. It is Donald Tusk. 2. Donald Tusk was on the Student Committe of Solodarity in Gdańsk. I haven’t seen evidence that he lead it. 3. Stanislaw Pyjas was certainly not his ‘predecessor’ as quoted. Nor was Pyjas even a member of the Student Comittee of Solidarity because it didn’t exist. It was set up, in Krakow, in response to his death. 4. Pyjas wasn’t thrown out of a window, he was found dead at the bottom of a stairwell. If, and it is an if as there is no actual evidence to support the theory, his death was at the hands the security service it is likely the result of his reputation for organising violent street protests, not for joining a sub division of a student body. Poland was a dangerous place at that time, I don’t dispute that. Anti government feeling was rife but was Donald Tusk more at risk then anyone else who held anti communist feelings at that time? Doubtful. When marshal law was imposed in 81 and thousands of dissidents were imprisoned was he considered such a threat to the state? Well he wasn’t arrested. Look, I lived in Poland for 6 years and for a good chunk of that he was Prime Minister, I like him but I don’t think even he would hold himself up to be some kind of hero that stared down communism...most Poles would laugh you out the room for suggesting it. So yeah, I think I stick with my comment on the original post, the story was embellished and didn’t truly reflect either the facts of the case or Donald Tusk’s role in the demise of communism in Poland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 I used to live in Trinidad. I am not an expert in Calypso. You are arguing over semantics not embellishments. Tusk helped start up the student committee of the solidarity movement. It was unpopular he could have been killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 42 minutes ago, Seat68 said: I used to live in Trinidad. I am not an expert in Calypso. You are arguing over semantics not embellishments. Tusk helped start up the student committee of the solidarity movement. It was unpopular he could have been killed. No he didn’t help start the Student Comittee of the Solidarity Movement. That’s a complete falsehood, not semantics. That movement was started by friends and followers of Stanislaw Pyjas in Krakow, hundreds of miles away from Gdansk and months before Donald Tusk had ever heard of the notion. He joined an existing sub branch of a student body. If Jeremy Corbyn joined the communist party at North London Polytechnic you wouldn’t claim he was the successor to Stalin...it’s ridiculous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 21 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: No he didn’t help start the Student Comittee of the Solidarity Movement. That’s a complete falsehood, not semantics. That movement was started by friends and followers of Stanislaw Pyjas in Krakow, hundreds of miles away from Gdansk and months before Donald Tusk had ever heard of the notion. He joined an existing sub branch of a student body. If Jeremy Corbyn joined the communist party at North London Polytechnic you wouldn’t claim he was the successor to Stalin...it’s ridiculous! Maybe I am reading incorrectly. I am currently in a bar in greece and unsure how to link to a paragraph in a boik online that backs up what I am saying. I will give it a good stab a little later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 So new defense deal with Germany one day Junker comes out saying 'deal can be done' the next Nothing to see here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Did you ever doubt it would be anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 41 minutes ago, colhint said: Did you ever doubt it would be anything else. Nope, it was inevitable that we were going to cave in and agree to everything eventually. It was just a case of how long it was going to take. If reports are true, then it seems the answer is "as long as it took to get the party conference out of the way". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Well that's one way to look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 13 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: No he didn’t help start the Student Comittee of the Solidarity Movement. That’s a complete falsehood, not semantics. That movement was started by friends and followers of Stanislaw Pyjas in Krakow, hundreds of miles away from Gdansk and months before Donald Tusk had ever heard of the notion. He joined an existing sub branch of a student body. If Jeremy Corbyn joined the communist party at North London Polytechnic you wouldn’t claim he was the successor to Stalin...it’s ridiculous! This is from the Statesmans Yearbook by Barry Turner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 36 minutes ago, Seat68 said: This is from the Statesmans Yearbook by Barry Turner. Well I appreciate the link to your source, it becomes easier for me to see where any misunderstanding has arisen. Far be it from me to criticise Barry Turner so I’m just going to throw out a few questions and then if people want they can look things up and make their own minds up on the accuracy of his bio. What year and where was the Student Comittee of Solidarity movement started? What were the reasons for its establishment? In what year, where and what were the reasons for the trade union Solidarity being established? Other than both organisations containing the word Solidarity in their name, were the two organisations linked? What year did Donald Tusk graduate? Having asked those questions, I reiterate that I think Donald Tusk is a good politician and I like him. I mentioned the fact I had lived in Poland not as a means of pulling rank on history knowledge but in an attempt to say that I had first hand experience of how good a politician he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 One side has shown and linked to their evidence, the other has invited us to go and answer a bunch questions. A quick basic wiki check and the dates of Solidarity and when they were under pressure check out as the early 80's. At 9:45am on a Sunday, I'll go with the team that provided their evidence that a small amount of research has backed up. Unless better links and quotes are on their way, Tusk was on the good side, against the oppressors. A debate over whether he was 73% good or 88% good, I'm not that interested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xann Posted October 7, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2018 19 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: One side has shown and linked to their evidence, the other has invited us to go and answer a bunch questions. This thread all over. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Unless better links and quotes are on their way, Tusk was on the good side, against the oppressors. A debate over whether he was 73% good or 88% good, I'm not that interested in. And it also risks masking the underlying point behind the original post - specifically that Jeremy Hunt is a complete whopper who should be thoroughly ashamed of himself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 It would be great if the reason the focus of this chiefly anti-leave thread moving towards details of Tusk’s youth, instead of the deal negotiations, was a sign that a reasonable deal (or ‘fudge’ if one prefers) is nearing or at least still possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, brommy said: It would be great if the reason the focus of this chiefly anti-leave thread moving towards details of Tusk’s youth, instead of the deal negotiations, was a sign that a reasonable deal (or ‘fudge’ if one prefers) is nearing or at least still possible. I would genuinely love for us to come out of this well. I have no interest in being able to say 'I told you so'. I would much prefer to be proven utterly wrong to have worried about our future. The mood music right now is that there could be some form of deal both sides are happy with. If that's true, and we can prosper, I'll be really happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Literally not one remainer wants to be proven right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Literally not one remainer wants to be proven right. I hope that’s true. Whether supporting the majority decision or not, it’s better for the UK to get the best deal possible, given the circumstances of honouring the democratic majority. For example, as an active Labour and CND member in my late teens and early twenties and as someone who has never voted Tory in any national or local election in my life, I have always wanted each government to succeed; for the good of the UK, for the good of my family and for the good of democracy. Edited October 7, 2018 by brommy MIsunderstood original quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 As a generalisation of 16,000,000 people, yes I guess there are 'some' that want it to fail. Like, a dozen or something. Personally, I have never encountered one of these in real life or on any social media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: As a generalisation of 16,000,000 people, yes I guess there are 'some' that want it to fail. Like, a dozen or something. Personally, I have never encountered one of these in real life or on any social media. Unfortunately on this thread or microcosm alone, there have been several references ‘schadenfreude’. It’s perfectly possible those who want the process to fail will spend the next couple of decades in a state of schadenfreude whilst the rest of us are managing our lives, as ever, to the best way we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 7, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted October 7, 2018 You can want the UK to succeed, and also look forward to schadenfreude. Like I do. I certainly don't want the UK to fail. I live here. I happen to think any Leave result is one that leaves us to some extent worse off. Because that's true. Hopefully we get the least worse off result possible. I happen to think that won't happen but I can hope. And when we are all worse off, I can still look forward to the schadenfreude. Things will be shittier, for me included, but I can enjoy those begging for that outcome suffering too. Never the less I'd prefer no schadenfreude and the UK succeeding. Unfortunately my preferred outcome isn't happening, so I'm banking on mitigating the damage and making up the difference in gammon tears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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