The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[bickster]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

I thought 2nd votes weren't democratic 

That will be hilarious

[HanoiVillan]

5 hours ago, ml1dch said:

BBC want people like the CBI and "representatives" of official bodies asking technical questions about the agreed proposal. So very little scope for arguing.

ITV want a bigger audience, questions about the whole situation from across the political spectrum.

May wants the first because she'll be able to say things like "as my honourable friend would know had he read and understood it, it clearly states the answer to this in article 89, paragraph 7"

Corbyn wants the second because he can just answer every question with "the real answer to that question lies in this Government's terrible ideological cuts and austerity, which a Labour Government would end and this is why we must have a general election".

I think this is true on the party leader's motivations. However, to be clear, the BBC idea is not just experts - my jab about Owen Farrell is down to their proposal suggesting questions from 'sporting figures' and other celebrities. 

It would be an embarrassment, which I suppose means it would fit in perfectly with the rest of the BBC's political coverage. 

[HanoiVillan]

It's time for a trip down memory lane!

Let's go back in time to October 2016, when the Legatum Institute (everyone's favourite American right-wing money think tank) and IDS's Centre for Social Justice met up and wrote a report:

'On Friday 9th September, Ministers, senior officials from the Brexit departments, Number 10 and Cabinet Office representation came together with leading experts, academics and former Cabinet Ministers to discuss how to progress the UK’s exit from the EU, the restoration of governing powers, and a good outcome for access to the rest of the EU’s markets. The authors are very grateful to All Souls College for hosting the seminar.'

https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/core/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/160930-CSJJ4877_Brexit_essay_collection_0916_WEB.pdf

An extract:

Point 2 sounds great, why haven't we done that? 

It wasn't just these two geniuses working hard on this great plan either!

Most amusing part:

How lucky we are to have such titans at the tiller. 

[ml1dch]

"a break from the detail" which is still going on until this very day.

[Chindie]

More criticism has come out about the dumb debate. Firstly it seems the BBC plan basically meant that after opening and closing statements and panel input the actual debate would be about 12 minutes long. Which is completely useless in any circumstance.

Then it appears the proposed panel wouldn't be at all balanced. 5 of the planned panel would support the deal with only 1 of either opposing viewpoint. So May would effectively have her own cheerleading squad kissing her arse and bigging up her deal, while the rest would have solitary voices.

It also appears that the BBC has been talking with the government about a debate for weeks, and the alternatives only being consulted at the last minute.

And no network wants to involve any other party, seemingly because it would be make TV history to have a head to head debate in the UK.

I must admit, the BBC has taken an absolutely astronomical dive in is trustworthiness in this whole debacle imo. It's increasingly become an obvious government mouthpiece.

[chrisp65]

Yeah, I'm struggling with the BBC these days. I've been telling myself it's the nearest thing we have to impartial and at least when it is pandering to the tories, well it gives you an insight in to the enemy.

But more recently, I'm not bothering with it. I think they've made some short term choices that will be catastrophic for their own future.

[mjmooney]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Yeah, I'm struggling with the BBC these days. I've been telling myself it's the nearest thing we have to impartial and at least when it is pandering to the tories, well it gives you an insight in to the enemy.

And yet Tory supporters insist it's a hotbed of left wing propaganda. 

[peterms]

16 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I must admit, the BBC has taken an absolutely astronomical dive in is trustworthiness in this whole debacle imo. It's increasingly become an obvious government mouthpiece. 

The conclusion is correct, but the Brexit issue is a vanishingly small part of the evidence for it.

[chrisp65]

Just now, mjmooney said:

And yet Tory supporters insist it's a hotbed of left wing propaganda. 

yeah, I get that if both sides complain it must be ok.

But that's not what I'm seeing anymore. From Humphrys and Robinson, Marr, Kuennsberg, the free platform for a non ministerial MP from Somerset. The hanging on any word Boris says. The arguing with rather than interviewing of Corbyn. The utter dismissal of any opinion from Scotland and lack of representation for Cornwall or Wales or Non DUP Northern Ireland.

That's off the top of my head. 

[NurembergVillan]

23 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

yeah, I get that if both sides complain it must be ok.

But that's not what I'm seeing anymore. From Humphrys and Robinson, Marr, Kuennsberg, the free platform for a non ministerial MP from Somerset. The hanging on any word Boris says. The arguing with rather than interviewing of Corbyn. The utter dismissal of any opinion from Scotland and lack of representation for Cornwall or Wales or Non DUP Northern Ireland.

That's off the top of my head. 

Don't forget the Grand Old Duke of Gammon -

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

And yet Tory supporters insist it's a hotbed of left wing propaganda. 

I think that's called 'working the refs'. 

[bickster]

3 hours ago, mjmooney said:

And yet Tory supporters insist it's a hotbed of left wing propaganda. 

Bit slow to catch on most of them

[blandy]

7 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

yeah, I get that if both sides complain it must be ok.

But that's not what I'm seeing anymore. From Humphrys and Robinson, Marr, Kuennsberg, the free platform for a non ministerial MP from Somerset. The hanging on any word Boris says. The arguing with rather than interviewing of Corbyn. The utter dismissal of any opinion from Scotland and lack of representation for Cornwall or Wales or Non DUP Northern Ireland.

That's off the top of my head. 

Deep breath. I kind of don’t mind if a news org has more gammons or more allotment tenders than not, that’s kind of ok. But what I do want is for those people of whatever bent to do their journalistic and interviewing jobs fairly and well. I don’t mind that they concentrate more on government actions than opposition actions and words, to an extent, because ultimately those have more impact on our lives and perhaps deserve more scrutiny and examination. Where the BBC has got things wrong IMO is they’ve not shown an openness on too many issues, particularly Brexit. Like you say they’ve cut out the Scots, Welsh etc. angles and ignored almost the weight of the remain arguments, which half the population at least are in favour of. They are too London centric, too Tory centric and seem to focus more on personal angles like May, Mogg, Johnson etc and their futures, rather than that of the nation. The likes of Corbyn, Abbott etc.  well the scorn they might seem to get is pretty much self brought, IMO. They’re way short of competent performers, and prefer to avoid rather than improve their game. 

[Seat68]

I adore the bbc, however I avoid or take with a mountain of salt their political coverage. 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I adore the bbc, however I avoid or take with a mountain of salt their political coverage. 

Same, I’ve always stuck up for them and the value the licence fee gives, it is just the politics and the reason it’s become like that stems back to Cameron and his shake up, then the appointments he made in crucial positions

[OutByEaster?]

When Cameron threatened to take the licence off them and they subsequently installed people that agreed with him into senior editorial positions it was always going to be difficult for them to remain impartial. It's difficult I would imagine to run an impartial news agency with a gun to your head. For me the BBC is still worth fighting for, but it needs protection for its status that separates it from governmental influence.

 

[Seat68]

Be interesting to see if newswatch mentions newsnights vicar.

[peterms]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Same, I’ve always stuck up for them and the value the licence fee gives, it is just the politics and the reason it’s become like that stems back to Cameron and his shake up, then the appointments he made in crucial positions

Those things are important, but I think a seminal moment was the death of David Kelly and the fallout from the reporting of that.  It's from then on that the BBC has seemed cowed, and too willing to accept the government line, or not push too hard.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, Seat68 said:

Be interesting to see if newswatch mentions newsnights vicar.

That pretty much encapsulates a lot of what my personal problem is with all this. They've gone from serious diligent journalism to personality driven content followed by vox pops. Cheaper and easier on the eye.

But not only that, the vox pop audience then regularly turns out to have been selected. For Newsnight to say there is nothing fishy about sticking a big russian hat on their image of Corbyn is one thing. For them to still today be in denial that the mad vicar wasn't a weird planted mouthpiece is ruining their credibility.

A dog collar wearing 'vicar' that supports brexit is one thing. An actor that's friends with the producer, that runs her own fake church based around touching the screen and sending in money. Well, that was horrible. I watched that over two nights and presumed she was 'legit'. If Newsnight are now staging fake debates, where do we go from here?

[Jon]

5 hours ago, Seat68 said:

I adore the bbc, however I avoid or take with a mountain of salt their political coverage. 

 Yep.  I think we have to separate the BBC 'news' output from the BBC's often very good artistic/entertainment  output. 

But it does get harder to justify the licence fee for what has effectively become the government's mouthpiece