The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

We're currently in a phase where Labour are about to lose credibility and votes imo. The country is moving in favour of remain, this is a consistent trend in the polls now. The Guardian published a poll the other day saying the country is massively in favour of a second referendum (this is still an outlier and does depend on how the question is phrased).

Vladimir Illych Corbyn is against EU membership (always has been - its a construct of the capitalist system), if Labour wants to progress they need to dump him ASAP, he'll become more toxic as the days go by, the countries opinion is moving in the opposite direction to him on Europe, his party's membership has always been opposed to his opinion on the EU membership issue, as are the majority of the MPs. They all need to wake up, smell the Danish bacon and do the decent thing by putting the needs of the country above this little anachronistic love affair with the nice man with the beard and the cap.

Right now they are the opposition and they aren't opposing the most lunatic and catastrophic decision this country has made in all of our lifetimes because the bloke at the top doesn't like it. His membership, his MPs, his backers the Unions all disagree with him. It's actually insane that he's still there

There's scant polling evidence for this thesis that the country is decisively swinging towards Remain. 

[blandy]

30 minutes ago, bickster said:

Right now they are the opposition and they aren't opposing...

Zackly. By not opposing, they’re supporting. 

[Jon]

10 hours ago, Chindie said:

They aren't a government in waiting. This country likes to vote Tory.

And I'd be happier voting for someone whose policies are at least clear, rather than the one that wants to win by nudging and winking then rolling back the nudge and denying the wink in an attempt to play politics better than someone intent on constant foot shooting.

A vote for the Greens then?

[bickster]

48 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

There's scant polling evidence for this thesis that the country is decisively swinging towards Remain. 

1) I didn't say decisively

2) Most polls published since the middle of last year have remain marginally ahead according to the Poll trackers at What UK Thinks

[darrenm]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Darren, in the past you have mentioned that you are a comparatively recent convert to caring about politics passionately. I hope that's what's going on here, because you can't predict the results of an election four years before it happens. I don't know if you were that interested in British politics during the coalition, but Ed Miliband was frequently posting much bigger poll leads. At an analogous point during the coalition, ie end of January 2011, one Angus Reid poll gave the Tories 32% to Labour's 43%. And yet at the election in 2015, the Tories won a majority. 

Do I think Labour's chances of winning are greater than 50/50? Yes. But you can't say things like 'Labour are the next government', life isn't that predictable (and it does come across as a bit arrogant and very complacent). 

Point accepted. Thank you for explaining. I've been on Twitter far too much recently and I've picked up the accent.

[Chindie]

51 minutes ago, Jon said:

A vote for the Greens then?

Probably not. It's been a while since I looked at their manifesto but traditionally there's things in there I don't support.

My seat is invariably Labour anyway. And Brexit supporting, even more so at ward level.

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, bickster said:

1) I didn't say decisively

2) Most polls published since the middle of last year have remain marginally ahead according to the Poll trackers at What UK Thinks

But if the difference is remaining marginal, then I don't see how 'the country is moving in favour of remain'; it isn't, it remains basically deadlocked where it was 18 months ago. A small number of voters on both sides have switched sides, basically cancelling each other out, and some of those who didn't vote in 2016 now say they would vote Remain, which accounts for the small Remain lead. Otherwise, it's as you were. 

If you're right, we'll start to see the Lib Dems advancing in the polls at the expense of Labour. It could happen, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[snowychap]

From that link:

Quote

II.

TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS

10.

The European Council guidelines of 29 April 2017 set out general core principles applying to any agreement with the United Kingdom as well as to any transitional arrangements:

- any agreement will have to be based on a balance of rights and obligations, and ensure a level playing field;

– preserving the integrity of the Single Market excludes participation based on a sector-by-sector approach;

– a non-member of the Union, that does not live up to the same obligations as a member, cannot have the same rights and enjoy the same benefits as a member;

– the four freedoms of the Single Market are indivisible and there can be no "cherry picking";

– the Union will preserve its autonomy as regards its decision-making as well as the role of the Court of Justice of the European Union. According to the European Council guidelines of 15 December 2017, this refers notably to the competence of the Court of Justice of the European Union.

11. In addition to these core principles, the European Council guidelines of 29 April 2017 set out specific conditions applicable to any possible transitional arrangements. To the extent necessary and legally possible, the negotiations may seek to determine transitional arrangements which are in the interest of the Union and, as appropriate, to provide for bridges towards the foreseeable framework for the future relationship in the light of the progress made. As reiterated by the European Council Guidelines of 15 December2017, any such transitional arrangements must be clearly defined and precisely limited in time. They must also be subject to effective enforcement mechanisms.

12. These supplementary negotiating directives are based on and further develop the principles and conditions laid down in the European Council guidelines of 15 December 2017.

13. In line with those guidelines, which further specify and develop the core principles laid out in the European Council guidelines of 29 April 2017,any transitional arrangements provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement should cover the whole of the Union acquis, including Euratom matters. Notwithstanding paragraph 18 of these negotiating directives, the Union acquis should apply to and in the United Kingdom as if it were a Member State. Any changes to the Union acquis should automatically apply to and in the United Kingdom during the transition period. For acts adopted in the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice by which the United Kingdom is bound before its withdrawal, Articles 4a of Protocol (No 21) and 5 of Protocol (No 19) annexed to the Treaties, which allow the United Kingdom not to participate in an act amending a measure by which it is already bound, should continue to apply during the transition period including the possibility for the Union to determine that this non participation would make the relevant measure inoperable and therefore that the measure should cease to apply to the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom should however no longer be allowed to opt in to measures in this Area other than those amending, replacing or building upon the above mentioned existing acts.

14. During the transition period, Union law covered by these transitional arrangements should deploy in the United Kingdom the same legal effects as those which it deploys within the Member States of the Union. This means, in particular, that the direct effect and primacy of Union law should be preserved.

15. During the transition period, and in line with the European Council guidelines of 29 April 2017, the United Kingdom should remain bound by the obligations stemming from the agreements concluded by the Union, or by Member States acting on its behalf, or by the Union and its Member States acting jointly, while the United Kingdom should however no longer participate in any bodies set up by those agreements.

16. In line with the European Council guidelines of 15 December 2017, any transitional arrangements require the United Kingdom's continued participation in the Customs Union and the Single Market (with all four freedoms) during the transition. The United Kingdom should take all necessary measures to preserve the integrity of the Single Market and of the Customs Union. The United Kingdom should continue to comply with the Union trade policy. It should also in particular ensure that its customs authorities continue to act in accordance with the mission of EU customs authorities including by collecting Common Customs Tariff duties and by performing all checks required under Union law at the border vis-à-vis other third countries. During the transition period, the United Kingdom may not become bound by international agreements entered into in its own capacity in the fields of competence of Union law, unless authorised to do so by the Union.

17. In line with the European Council guidelines of 29 April 2017 and the first set of negotiating directives of 22 May 2017, any time-limited prolongation of the Union acquis requires existing Union regulatory, budgetary, supervisory, judiciary and enforcement instruments and structures to apply, including the competence of the Court of Justice of the European Union.

18. In relation to the application of the Union acquis to the United Kingdom, the Withdrawal Agreement should therefore, during the transition period, preserve the full competences of the Union institutions (in particular the full jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union), bodies, offices and agencies in relation to the United Kingdom and to United Kingdom natural or legal persons In particular, Union institutions, bodies and agencies should conduct all supervision and control proceedings foreseen by Union law. In line with the European Council guidelines of 15 December 2017, the United Kingdom will however no longer participate in or nominate or elect members of the Union institutions, nor participate in the decision-making or the governance of the Union bodies, offices and agencies.

19. During the transition period ,as a general rule, the UK will not attend meetings of committees referred to in Article 3 (2) of Regulation (EU) No 182/20113 or Commission experts groups and other similar entities or of the agencies, offices or bodies where Member States are represented. Exceptionally on a case-by-case basis, the United Kingdom could be invited to attend without voting rights such meetings provided that:

–the discussion concerns individual acts to be addressed to the United Kingdom or to United Kingdom natural or legal persons; or

–the presence of the United Kingdom is necessary and in the interest of the Union, in particular for the effective implementation of the Union acquis during the transition period.

20. The Withdrawal Agreement should define the precise conditions and the clear framework under which such exceptional attendance should be allowed.

21. Specific consultations should also be foreseen with regard to the fixing of fishing opportunities (total allowable catches) during the transition period, in full respect of the Union acquis.

22. The transition period should apply as from the date of entry into force of the Withdrawal Agreement and should not last beyond 31 December 2020.

 

 

[ml1dch]

I guess the only question is whether we roll over immediately, give in and agree with everything, or whether we waste time, argue for a few months and then roll over, give in and agree with everything.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ml1dch

[Chindie]

The last one.

But with added pretending we didn't do that.

[mjmooney]

44 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The last one.

But with added pretending we didn't do that.

And then all the Daily Mail readers will be so angry, they'll vote Labour in out of spite. 

[a m ole]

layman’s terms - you can’t have your cake and eat it too?

[Chindie]

11 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

And then all the Daily Mail readers will be so angry, they'll vote Labour in out of spite. 

Heil readers voting Labour?! They'd break their onyx coffee tables with their teeth before they even dare think it.

[Chindie]

The fallout from the penny dropping will be delicious.

[mjmooney]

13 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Heil readers voting Labour?! They'd break their onyx coffee tables with their teeth before they even dare think it.

Indeed. But I can see plenty of them not voting, as a form of protest, which would ultimately have the same effect. 

[Rodders]

7 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The fallout from the penny dropping will be delicious.

 

will just be a remainer conspiracy secret remainers who didn't try hard enough etc. 

[ml1dch]

44 minutes ago, a m ole said:

layman’s terms - you can’t have your cake and eat it too?

Layman's terms - we're actually going to take your cake and throw it in the bin. And then hide your recipe book.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ml1dch

[Chindie]

14 minutes ago, Rodders said:

 

will just be a remainer conspiracy secret remainers who didn't try hard enough etc. 

Oh no doubt there'll be that.

But we have to have a rerun of the usual suspects first - starting with everything will be fine, through needing to sell us Beemers, to 'well, I'll be alright' - and between those lines will be the juicy bits. There's been a bit already. You can also expect a few to be saying this is why we need to leave.

Brexit. Dumbest thing we've done.

Theres a few comments going around from the German ambassador today, who is retiring, that I think we bang on. Talk of Brexit in part fuelled by an image of Britain as exceptional, still longing for the good old days.

[Milfner]

59 minutes ago, a m ole said:

layman’s terms - you can’t have your cake and eat it too?

 

Didn't know Ted Kaczynski was a Villa fan...

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

The fallout from the penny dropping will be delicious.

It won't, even for the connoisseur. There's surely only so much vile "Traitors/Enemies of the people/Sabotage" type stuff anyone can take from the efftards.

If they were possessed of any kind of self awareness (as in "we did this to ourselves, because we were foolish and delusional") it would be delicious, but they won't ever admit or accept that anything other than a return to a non-existent past, even while the rest of the world has moved on, is acceptable.

It's part of the problem - it's all so polarised. The people in the middle part, Brexit or remain, would be OK with finding out "OK, what I thought about leaving or remaining being brilliant turns out to be wrong, and it's for the best that we've avoided a bit of a calamity" but the extremers will never ever accept that they might be wrong - that the EU isn't perfect or that leaving isn't the key to a sunlit glorious uplands, restoring the UK to primacy over the world.

It's all just a bit horrible.