The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[tinker]

I wonder which way the referendum would have gone if it was one which decided if we went to war or not in 1939? 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

8 hours ago, snowychap said:

No. Especially as you've taken this as an opportuinity to shoehorn the capitalized word 'Lefties' in to your criticism.

What I was suggesting is that if you can make a valid argument that the right to bear arms might have seemed appropriate in 1791 but has long ago ceased to be so, because things have changed, then you could make an equally valid argument that free movement of workers as laid down in the Treaty of Rome in 1957, might have been appropriate then, amongst a few nations of roughly equal standard of living, but might not be appropriate now that countries of substantially lower standards of living are being added, ten at a time.

I would have thought those who wished to remain part of the EU would be eager to discuss workable compromises, not reject them out of hand.

It seems that it was intransigence which brought us to the present outcome, which a lot of people regret.

[snowychap]

20 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

What I was suggesting...

I understand what someone means when they say 'Isn't this the same argument'. Edit: Perhaps the specific post made was the same kind of argument (on its face it's similar but I'm not so sure that it is the same as it's about all of those pillars being necessary to create the whole) but I don't think the post itself speaks for everyone when they talk about freedom of movement.

What has the rest of your response to do with the idle insertion of the word 'Lefties'?

Edited June 29, 2016 by snowychap

[MakemineVanilla]

39 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I understand what someone means when they say 'Isn't this the same argument'. I disagree, by the way. It isn't the same argument.

What has the rest of your response to do with the idle insertion of the word 'Lefties'?

Lefties - the collective noun for what the old Labour Party used to describe as the 'broad church' of beliefs of their membership.

I was actually thinking of Bill Maher the stand-up comedian who is somewhere within the spectrum of Leftiness (he gave a $1m to the Obama campaign).

He made the humorous observation that something called an amendment, surely must be open to amendment; the clue being in the name.

I always like to think I have better credentials than most for claiming to be a Lefty.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

for some maybe  , but from the polling it seemed for a majority of the 17m immigration wasn't the number one issue it was about making our own decisions

 

the NHS thing was clearly a red herring , I've a sneaky feeling someone from the campaign team logged onto Villa Talk and knew our rule that everything monetary related had to be measured in nurses and hospitals and thought  Good idea ,I'm nicking that

Don't forget to amortization wages as well or it all goes wrong  

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

5 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Lefties - the collective noun for what the old Labour Party used to describe as the 'broad church' of beliefs of their membership.

I was actually thinking of Bill Maher the stand-up comedian who is somewhere within the spectrum of Leftiness (he gave a $1m to the Obama campaign).

He made the humorous observation that something called an amendment, surely must be open to amendment; the clue being in the name.

I always like to think I have better credentials than most for claiming to be a Lefty.

Wasn't it amended for Slavery also ? (I think it is statistically proven in the USA that if you have a gun in the house you are more likely to blow your own head off (suicide) than ever need it for protection) apart from that,  they are sorted)

  

 

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Lefties - the collective noun for what the old Labour Party used to describe as the 'broad church' of beliefs of their membership.

Still not really an answer to the question I posed.

You're attempting to crassly simplify arguments and debate by drawing unhelpfully loose comparisons and by applying labels wherever possible. Ironically (given your issue with such), that's the kind of thing one would expect to read in opinion pieces in modern media outlets.

Has someone else you've heard or read made some kind of 'humorous observation' about pillars?

[MakemineVanilla]

55 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Wasn't it amended for Slavery also ? (I think it is statistically proven in the USA that if you have a gun in the house you are more likely to blow your own head off (suicide) than ever need it for protection) apart from that,  they are sorted)

  

 

Yes, the 13th, and prohibition was the 18th amendment which was repealed.

[StefanAVFC]

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/crime/polish-shopkeeper-in-leeds-taken-to-hospital-after-racially-aggravated-incident-1-7987145

Quote

 

POLICE ARE investigating a racially aggravated incident involving a Leeds shopkeeper.

Reports on social media said the Polish man had been attacked and told to “go back to his country”, with some saying the floor was covered in blood.

West Yorkshire Police confirmed they were investigating comments made towards the shopkeeper, but said he had not been physically attacked.

I'm so fed up of this.

[Nabby]

s24 seconds ago

Juncker: "Scotland has won the right to be heard in Brussels and I will listen carefully"

 

From BBC Twitter

Edited June 29, 2016 by Nabby

[StefanAVFC]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36659900

Quote

There can be "no single market a la carte" for the UK, EU leaders have warned, after meeting in Brussels to discuss the UK vote to leave the bloc.

Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission, said anyone wanting access to the EU's internal market had to adhere to strict criteria "without exception".

There could be "no negotiation without notification", he said.

The German and French leaders and the Council President said the same.

Donald Tusk said there would be another meeting of EU leaders, excluding the UK, on 16 September in Bratislava.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel also reiterated that there would be no discussions until Article 50 was formally triggered by the UK government.

"We wish that that would happen as soon as possible," she said.

Invoke article 50 - either betray your demographic who want control of the border or forgoe the single market.

This is going to be fun.

[PieFacE]

That was always going to happen though, wasn't it? No one actually believed BJ when he said he could get access to the market whilst having a control on immigration, did they? 

[chrisp65]

So Juncker is telling the UK what is and isn't available for negotiation, where the EU red lines are. Plus saying he won't start discussions on what is and isn't negotiable until it's a formalised process.

No discussion of anything until we've strictly followed protocol and formally applied to leave. Not invited to the next meeting as we look like we are leaving.

Double standards or bad reporting by the media?

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, PieFacE said:

That was always going to happen though, wasn't it? No one actually believed BJ when he said he could get access to the market whilst having a control on immigration, did they? 

Considering there's people who believed that all immigrants would be kicked out on Friday morning, it wouldn't surprise me.

Also I've had many a leave voter say to me about taking control of our borders. It was a big campaign promise by leave. Now it turns out we can't take control of our borders without commiting economic suicide.

What a mess.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Political class are going to fudge the result now that the Leavers have realised what they have done. Where those angry voters go next is another matter.

[brommy]

The EU's own intransigence could be their own downfall.

[PieFacE]

Spain will block any attempt from Scotland to talk to the EU apparently. 

[brommy]

19 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36659900

Invoke article 50 - either betray your demographic who want control of the border or forgoe the single market.

I thought the UK's referendum result displayed a willing to leave the single market. Isn't that what a 'Leave the EU' success would mean?

As for access to trade with the 'single market', why would any market refuse customers?

[hippo]

45 minutes ago, brommy said:

I thought the UK's referendum result displayed a willing to leave the single market. Isn't that what a 'Leave the EU' success would mean?

As for access to trade with the 'single market', why would any market refuse customers?

I think in the short term the euro politicians will deny us access to the single market. But in time the businesses of those country's will lean on those politicians to trade with us. Be a bit of who blinks first.

We could always use Norway as a clearing house for our imports and exports !  

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, brommy said:

I thought the UK's referendum result displayed a willing to leave the single market. Isn't that what a 'Leave the EU' success would mean?

As for access to trade with the 'single market', why would any market refuse customers?

The EU and the EEA are different. We chose to leave the EU.

The single market has regulatory and legislatory requirements to operate as a single market. So it doesn't just want any 'customer'. It wants ones that can achieve the required standards.