mjmooney Posted June 21, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2016 People do seem to confuse the EU with NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, Chindie said: It's blindingly obvious that whenever the EU is quoted as having fostered a conflict free Europe, it means the bits of Europe that are in the EU. And it isn't wrong either. There's pedantry and there's willfully missing the point. There's patronising and there is putting a point of view but presumably you had no issue with all the ambiguous claims that have been made in this debate it's pretty obviously that those wanting to argue against every such claim were just "missing the point" ... Guess we Didn't need these tv debates after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted June 21, 2016 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I didn't bother to watch as I've nothing to gain from it. I've no doubt each side embarrassed themselves with dog whistle claptrap. But on the point you raise... As I said, you (and the others I've seen raise the same point) are massively reaching for an argument that isn't there. It's pedantry at best. It's not really an argument. Unless I'm unaware of a war between contemporary EU states in the last 60 odd years. The EU has fostered peace in Europe - the bits of Europe that are directly engaged with it have not tried to eradicate each other, but instead have done business. Saying 'what about the Ukraine, eh? They said Europe!' isn't any more than pedantry. Ukraine isn't part of the EU. And no-one can reasonably blame the EU, or hold it against it, when a nation that wishes to join the EU becomes embroiled in it's own problems by trying to achieve that aim. It's pedantry. Nothing more. And pedantry doesn't win this argument. Edited June 21, 2016 by Chindie 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Didn't watch the debate. We're all decided already and just selecting the half facts that endorse our personal prejudices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, Chindie said: I didn't bother to watch as I've nothing to gain from it. I've no doubt each side embarrassed themselves with dog whistle claptrap. But on the point you raise... As I said, you (and the others I've seen raise the same point) are massively reaching for an argument that isn't there. It's pedantry at best. It's not really an argument. Unless I'm unaware of a war between contemporary EU states in the last 60 odd years. The EU has fostered peace in Europe - the bits of Europe that are directly engaged with it have not tried to eradicate each other, but instead have done business. Saying 'what about the Ukraine, eh? They said Europe!' isn't any more than pedantry. Ukraine isn't part of the EU. And no-one can reasonably blame the EU, or hold it against it, when a nation that wishes to join the EU becomes embroiled in it's own problems by trying to achieve that aim. It's pedantry. Nothing more. And pedantry doesn't win this argument. the person on the TV show said peace in Europe during a debate on the EU ... now maybe they meant the global powers and maybe they meant to say Germany hasn't invaded Poland for 60 years but that wasn't what they said , so in that regard with all that has happened since the end of WWII ( Balkans etc ) it's as much a myth / lie / deliberate attempt to mislead as the £350m figure , surely you can see that.. I really don't think that it's pedantry to question that claim and I don't think anyone can really sit there with a straight face and say Europe has been in its longest period of peace due to the EU ( which was the claim ) ... The most one can say for European peace is that since WWII no western European power has gone to war against another western European power.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 47 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Didn't watch the debate. We're all decided already and just selecting the half facts that endorse our personal prejudices. According to various polls there are about 20% of voters undecided on this subject ... it was a fairly decent debate tbh , first time I've seen Khan in action and though he sorta floundered at times (plus he reverted to that annoying left wing thing of shouting over the top of people ) he also had some very foreceful moments and struck a very good argument , he'd have enhanced his reputation amongst those unfamiliar with him . Boris was Boris and by and large got away with murder (again) and just shows why you can't underestimate the chances of him being PM even if remain win , but I thought the star of the debate was Ruth Davidson , probably wasted in Scotchland but once the fall out of the story party is over she may have a big future at some point 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: the person on the TV show said peace in Europe during a debate on the EU ... now maybe they meant the global powers and maybe they meant to say Germany hasn't invaded Poland for 60 years but that wasn't what they said , so in that regard with all that has happened since the end of WWII ( Balkans etc ) it's as much a myth / lie / deliberate attempt to mislead as the £350m figure , surely you can see that.. I really don't think that it's pedantry to question that claim and I don't think anyone can really sit there with a straight face and say Europe has been in its longest period of peace due to the EU ( which was the claim ) ... The most one can say for European peace is that since WWII no western European power has gone to war against another western European power.... It's not at all clear what point you are trying to make. You seem to be debating in a style that is taught in ridiculous college debates. Focus on a single point that was made and is open to interpretation and then attack or otherwise disparage the credibility of the person or group who made the point, while of course making no actual point of your own. The biggest warmonger in the EU is the UK, followed by France (distanced due to Iraq), but as these are typically colonial wars against brown people... let's forget about them. Oh, and look how these countries were able to do what they damn well pleased in spite of all the precious sovereignty lost to the undemocratic EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, villakram said: . You seem to be debating in a style that is taught in ridiculous college debates. And at that point , I'm out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I was considered quite the master debater in college. I'm sure that's what they said. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 7 hours ago, tonyh29 said: And at that point , I'm out I thought you were a remain ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 22, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 22, 2016 11 hours ago, tonyh29 said: According to various polls there are about 20% of voters undecided on this subject ... it was a fairly decent debate tbh , first time I've seen Khan in action and though he sorta floundered at times (plus he reverted to that annoying left wing thing of shouting over the top of people ) he also had some very foreceful moments and struck a very good argument , he'd have enhanced his reputation amongst those unfamiliar with him . Boris was Boris and by and large got away with murder (again) and just shows why you can't underestimate the chances of him being PM even if remain win , but I thought the star of the debate was Ruth Davidson , probably wasted in Scotchland but once the fall out of the story party is over she may have a big future at some point From the parts of it I saw, I would agree with all of that, Tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted June 22, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 22, 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 lady at work said she wasn't sure , so spoke to the headmaster at school as she thought , smart lady she's bound to know and give me an informed opinion on how to vote .... Headmaster said that she and her husband couldn't decide so on their postal votes one voted in and one voted out to balance it up Glad my children aren't at that school so I don't have to take them out and find a new school 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 seeing number 1 has reminded me though , they haven't pledged to stop immigration , just control it , thus European people can still come and go ...I believe Australia have some sort of system like it but I can't be sure as nobody has ever mentioned it previously it is interesting that leave want to control immigration and are vile , hate filled Xenophobes , (it's true that Farages posters have helped fuel that claim ) but Khan also stated we had too much immigration ( as have quite a few remain people over this debate ) and we needed to do something about it and nobody bats an eyelid , he said I understand people’s concerns about immigration, we need to manage immigration. We’ve got to make sure it’s not a free-for-all, isn't that the same argument ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I'm seriously pissed off to come home to find a Vote Leave campaign leaflet through my door, with the £350m a week bullshit on it. It should be **** criminal to keep campaigning with such deliberately misleading bullshit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I'm seriously pissed off to come home to find a Vote Leave campaign leaflet through my door, with the £350m a week bullshit on it. It should be **** criminal to keep campaigning with such deliberately misleading bullshit. I bet it also says Turkey are set to join the EU? Is it the one Nissan are taking legal action against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 28 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I'm seriously pissed off to come home to find a Vote Leave campaign leaflet through my door, with the £350m a week bullshit on it. It should be **** criminal to keep campaigning with such deliberately misleading bullshit. Both sides have printed misleading bullshit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 33 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I'm seriously pissed off to come home to find a Vote Leave campaign leaflet through my door, with the £350m a week bullshit on it. It should be **** criminal to keep campaigning with such deliberately misleading bullshit. Well i had one from Vote Remain so i guess shit evens itself out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 In the event of a Remain win I do hope that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are flung from catapults and never seen again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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