The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Danwichmann]

28 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

Having completed a poll for a trade federation and spoken with others, many have a brexit majority. Regulation and market access is generally cited as the reason.
The general rule was 'we want out' but 'out is bad for the national economy'.
SME exports to the EU are fairly well spread across all industries, and exporting SMEs use Europe more than non-EU markets. 
Is our domestic market strong enough to support any losses?
On average (export/import surplus) our SMEs do much better exporting to non-EU markets, by the amount of £285k.
Though stats, stats, stats, eh. They can prove anything!

That's why I want someone from remain to come out and say,
'Because of CAP subsidies we propose getting new farmers into the market like this'
'Because EU frameworks support transient employment we can impose these regulations to assist local and regional businesses'
'Because our EU funded energy projects have failed and new EU contracts are aimed at large companies we propose a UK industrial strategy funded by'

The list goes on. And that's what really frustrates me, nobody is willing to dig deep and the majority of remainers have as little clue about reform as brexiters have about leaving. At least I feel the brexiters have had the conversation even if many answers have been largely worthless.

 

I'm sure we all have questions we would like politicians to answer, and I think the ones you have mentioned are very valid ones. But have the leave side really got a plan for how to minimise the impact of losing CAP subsidies, for example? These are questions that need to be answered by domestic politicians, not the EU, whether we are in or out. I'm not sure they would influence many voters, and probably shouldn't. 

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

An alternative view on some of the economic 'facts' from Professor David Blake of Cass Business School.

On the extraordinary abuse of economic models in the EU referendum debate. 

http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/320758/BlakeReviewsTreasuryModels.pdf

Edited June 19, 2016 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[Chindie]

On regulations, it's worth noting that we're one of the least regulated nations in earth, even accounting for EU regulations.

[chrisp65]

if you weren't paying attention, or didn't feel the need for experts, it could look like Boris knows what he's doing...

[StefanAVFC]

On the Schengen topic, don't know how it is for other countries but Poles don't need a passport to enter the UK. Only an ID card.

[Danwichmann]

11 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

On the Schengen topic, don't know how it is for other countries but Poles don't need a passport to enter the UK. Only an ID card.

This is the same for most of Europe, they can use a government issued national identity card. As a visa isn't needed, a passport would only to confirm the identity and citizenship of the holder, and the ID card serves the same purpose. People from the UK need a passport to travel to Europe only because we don't have national identity cards. 

[ccfcman]

20 hours ago, ROTTERDAM1982 said:

Personalities are irrelevant JB24, you vote for the future.For me the EU is heading for disaster, and i think we will be better out of it now before it implodes.

Look at the way the EU treats the Greeks, whatever the faults of Greece, wherever the blame lies, the way the people are being by the club that is the EU, is no club i wish to be a member of.The Professor above is a very relevant discussion, but to me it shows how much power the EU has taken away from national governments, in essence neutering national parliaments.It will be a difficult 6 to 12 months period, but i believe long term we will be better away from the EU, as i said earlier, it is heading to disaster.

 

 The Italians will be next to default on their loans, then the shit will hit the fan, Europe will be in economic freefall.

10 years ago this was relevant. It has been suggested Italy will default since Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Spain hit the skids - it hasn't happened and it likely won't.

I do find it humorous how "the EU" treated Greece, is bandied about. Thus working on the supposition the UK wasn't a part of that process and putting a cruel and false spin on things. While not in the Eurozone the UK still  has sway through the Troika as a whole. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by ccfcman

[blandy]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

if you weren't paying attention, or didn't feel the need for experts, it could look like Boris knows what he's doing...

That is quality. Mind you I like to think of Boris as "El Capo" of the out brigade.

[ccfcman]

 

[StefanAVFC]

Fantastic by JO as always. Just don't get how anyone can vote leave.

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Fantastic by JO as always. Just don't get how anyone can vote leave.

People have preconceived ideas of how the world is and people have their own fears and prejudices. Most minds, in reality, were made up a long time ago. The last few horrible weeks have simply been about selecting the facts, half truths, arguments and figureheads that endorse your personal prejudices.

Many people that want to leave are likely not the sort of people to sit down and digest a message from John Oliver. I'm not sure he's got great traction with the over 70's, they'll be down the polling station at 7:30am. The students like him, unfortunately, large numbers of them will forget to get out of bed on the 23rd.

By the same token, when I see Nigel Farage, I get a feeling he is trying to sell someone some snake oil, whilst slipping his hand up their shorts. 

 

 

 

 

[mjmooney]

This age profiling thing. OK, it's a bit self selecting, but virtually all the over 60s I know are voting Remain. Whereas a number of my daughters' friends (20-somethings, educated) are voting Leave. 

It's just not that simple.

 

[StefanAVFC]

The leave side are definitely louder and more abrasive.

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

This age profiling thing. OK, it's a bit self selecting, but virtually all the over 60s I know are voting Remain. Whereas a number of my daughters' friends (20-somethings, educated) are voting Leave. 

It's just not that simple.

Agreed, it's not that simple and yes, I agree we do tend to move in self selecting circles.

As a clumsy clunky tool, it works. Add a little geography, income, health etc., and it soon breaks up.

I was at a 'thing' recently and it was absolutely reverting to type. A table of about 11 pensioners absolutely did not want to hear any 'facts', they were concerned for the local kids getting local jobs because of european immigrants 'getting everything on a plate'. When faced with the 'fact' that the local JobCentre director has publicly stated this week that the job situation is 'vibrant' with jobs available right now in the Vale of Glamorgan for anyone that wants them, one of the pensioners simply shook his head and said 'no'. The Vale has a total population of over 120,000 and the current number of registered unemployed between the ages of 18 and 24 is 300. As of last week there were more than 300 jobs available. A walk along the High Street or the coffee shops of the prom will show any number of signs in windows 'staff wanted'. Admittedly not jobs as racing drivers or backing singers, but something not nothing. 'No'.

When told that the top three first generation immigrant groups in the Vale were India, The Phillippines and Republic of Ireland, that same table of pensioners again said 'no'.

Statistics direct from the Director of the job centres and direct from ONS via a political researcher with a doctorate. 'No'.

You can't argue with that.

[mjmooney]

Exactly why it shouldn't have been a referendum. For all its faults, representative democracy works better than mob rule. 

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

Exactly why it shouldn't have been a referendum. For all its faults, representative democracy works better than mob rule. 

we have 54 SNP MP's in our house of commons who automatically vote in block against the Torys , we don't have representative democracy  

 

In the Tory thread it's often pointed out they won an election with around 11 millions votes and thus don't have any true mandate of the people  , if we get 51% vote leave and say 30 million people vote , surely that is a clearer mandate from the people than anything the House of Commons delivers ?

 

[alreadyexists]

I also think the leave side are louder and seem more 'fanatical' about it, but perhaps that is because it's hard to get excited about things remaining the same. I personally think leaving would be a mistake and I hope we remain, but it is hard to be as passionate about things staying the same in contrast to the 'radical' change which the leave side seem to think is the right idea.

[tonyh29]

23 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

The leave side are definitely louder and more abrasive.

I think by the very nature of this referendum you'd expect that though , same way all you mainly heard about in Scotchland was from the leave people 

[Danwichmann]

11 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

we have 54 SNP MP's in our house of commons who automatically vote in block against the Torys , we don't have representative democracy  

 

In the Tory thread it's often pointed out they won an election with around 11 millions votes and thus don't have any true mandate of the people  , if we get 51% vote leave and say 30 million people vote , surely that is a clearer mandate from the people than anything the House of Commons delivers ?

 

You're quite right that the UK has a very flawed democracy. No democracy is perfect, but I find the 'EU is undemocratic' argument coming from people who are happy with the monarchy, house of lords, FPTP and safe seats more than a touch hypocritical.

The British public are woefully ill informed about what the EU is and what is does. The  EU has massive cross party support, both in commons and lords. This is not a decision that should ever have been left to the public.

[tonyh29]

3 minutes ago, Danwichmann said:

You're quite right that the UK has a very flawed democracy. No democracy is perfect, but I find the 'EU is undemocratic' argument coming from people who are happy with the monarchy, house of lords, FPTP and safe seats more than a touch hypocritical.

The British public are woefully ill informed about what the EU is and what is does. The  EU has massive cross party support, both in commons and lords. This is not a decision that should ever have been left to the public.

it was when we joined ,all be it we joined a very different animal to the one we have now  ... I understand that lots of people are making ill informed decisions on this  , but on that basis we'd probably be better off not allowing the vast majority to vote in a general election either