Rugby World Cup 2015

[Zatman]

the bonus points in World Cup should be scrapped as well. just designed to help bigger nations with more depth. Japan potentially going out after winning 3 games

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Typical Ireland v Italy game: shite.

Oh well. Got the win, no major injuries. Bring on the French.

[Stevo985]

Was at the Olympic Stadium earlier.

Had a great day out, but it was an awful game of rugby. Atmosphere was flat as a result. Disappointed with that.

Didn't understand the Irish tactics. Just a high box kick or gary owen every single time they had possession. Literally.

 

I could understand it if they were winning the ball back every time they did it, but they weren't. Even with a couple of minutes to go, 7 points up, you'd think they'd just keep possession and run the clock down, but they just did the same thing. One phase, big box kick right back into Italy's possession.

It baffled me, and made it a very very dull game as there was hardly any running of the ball as a result.

 

Decent day out, awful game of rugby.

[chrissmith921]

Don't be happy for Lancaster to go. It will probably get worse when he's gone.

Bang on the money. Rob Andrew, RFU policy on not picking foreign based players, and Andy Farrell are the problems for England.

Lancaster (looking from this side of the bridge) knows what he's doing, remove the above 3 factors and England will win 2019.

[The_Rev]

the bonus points in World Cup should be scrapped as well. just designed to help bigger nations with more depth. Japan potentially going out after winning 3 games

Needs more discussion. It was introduced to encourage expansive Rugby where teams will attempt to score tries rather than kicking Rugby where teams just shut the game down and chip away at the scoreboard with penalties, presumably to make the game more palatable to a television audience. Scrapping it just because one team lose out in one competition still might have an overall negative impact on the game. 

[choffer]

It's no wonder that every non-Welsh person I know who's ever spent any significant time here absolutely hates them when it comes to rugby. 

Can't agree. I've spent a large proportion of my life in Wales and think their anti-English sentiment is rather mild.

 

(I am Scottish though so maybe not objective on the matter   )

 

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by choffer

[chrissmith921]

In terms of England going out - I'm pleased Wales have gone through, have ribbed a few on it too - but nothing more than we'd get in return.

England need to scrap that no overseas rule immediately though - as all they produce in the Premiership is the same big forwards, rugby league esque backs. If they don't do that, then they should ringfence the league - as the top clubs will always buy in players - the clubs lower down will actually produce the x factor players that can make a difference or give a plan B.

Also need to remember that Englands players tend to come from the same backgrounds - Milfield College for example - whenever I played against them they were cracking players, but soft as shite. If we played straight up rugby against them, they'd beat us every day of the week - but get in their face, or turn it into a battle - then we'd win. I faced them must be 20 times during school years - and never, ever, ever did they have a 'natural' 7 - a player every welsh school and club has - a dirty cheating bastard who will do what they have to do - perhaps, and I'm generalising here - the colleges and schools that are developing these players, are taking in great athletes, but who are a bit soft and a bit nice - you need the cheating bastards to win these games. England don't have them.

[snowychap]

I'm starting to get pretty irked by the mainstream media's reporting of the England exit, now.

Putting it down as 'the blackest day for England rugby' suggests that these people never watched England in the 80s.

[Zatman]

the bonus points in World Cup should be scrapped as well. just designed to help bigger nations with more depth. Japan potentially going out after winning 3 games

 

Needs more discussion. It was introduced to encourage expansive Rugby where teams will attempt to score tries rather than kicking Rugby where teams just shut the game down and chip away at the scoreboard with penalties, presumably to make the game more palatable to a television audience. Scrapping it just because one team lose out in one competition still might have an overall negative impact on the game. 

I think its OK in league and Heineken Cup for example as teams can buy to build a squad but internationals I think is a bit too much. Your not going to see a minnow getting a bonus point win vs a big nation

[chrissmith921]

I think use them only to separate teams on the same number of points (from wins, draws only) - I don't think you should be allowed to finish 2nd because you didn't lose as badly as another team.

[Eames]

The biggest crime for me is that the current European Player of the Year and his predecessor can't get a game. Its utterly criminal and so short sighted by the RFU. 

[The_Rev]

Yeah, I think the policy of snubbing players who play their club Rugby in France is a policy which will come under fierce attack in the post mortem from this world cup.  Whether the RFU like it or not the top players are going to the league with the best wages and not picking them smarts of 57 old farts cutting off their nose to spite their face.

[snowychap]

I'm not sure that the selection of Nick Abendanon would have made much of a difference. Armitage is perhaps a different story but I guess we'll never know.

Whether the RFU like it or not the top players are going to the league with the best wages and not picking them smarts of 57 old farts cutting off their nose to spite their face.

But that's not how it is, though, is it? It's not as though there are 15 top English players plying their trade in France whom England are ignoring whilst instead putting out a second string XV.

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by snowychap

[Zatman]

Even if they wouldnt have made a difference, to cut your options over stubbornness is ridiculous

[BOF]

Yes, regardless of the scale of its impact, the policy itself is indefensible to begin with.

[chrisp65]

With almost no knowledge of ruggerby at all this is a genuine question:

Has the deal whereby Wales were allowed to play two games quite literally at home come back to bite the organisers of the tournament on the backside? I know it was as a result of a long standing contract, but giving an opponent in your own 'group of death' two games at home, well, it's not exactly that old rule of tiny gains is it.

Possibly not, but you must wonder if the Fiji game could have gone differently if it had been played in Birmingham or Newcastle? Maybe?

 

 

 

[snowychap]

Even if they wouldnt have made a difference, to cut your options over stubbornness is ridiculous

It isn't stubbornness, is it? It's a policy decision with the intention of minimizing negative effects upon the English leagues of any mass exodus of players to overseas rugby (especially France at the moment).

Whether or not it is the right policy decision is arguable (I think it can go either way though one won't be able to judge for some time yet) but it really shouldn't be looked at in terms that are being discussed (stubbornness/spite and so on). The people who made the call did it on the basis that they believed the long term effect on English rugby (mainly club rugby but also the international side, I guess) of not having in place would be more deleterious than having it in place.

From what I gather, Welsh club rugby isn't in the rudest of health (though Mr Smith will have a more informed opinion than mine, no doubt) no matter how well the players at the top are performing and surely that kind of thing will feed through at some point?

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by snowychap

[chrissmith921]

Even if they wouldnt have made a difference, to cut your options over stubbornness is ridiculous

It isn't stubbornness, is it? It's a policy decision with the intention of minimizing negative effects upon the English leagues of any mass exodus of players to overseas rugby (especially France at the moment).

Whether or not it is the right policy decision is arguable (I think it can go either way though one won't be able to judge for some time yet) but it really shouldn't be looked at in terms that are being discussed (stubbornness/spite and so on). The people who made the call did it on the basis that they believed the long term effect on English rugby (mainly club rugby but also the international side, I guess) of not having in place would be more deleterious than having it in place.

From what I gather, Welsh club rugby isn't in the rudest of health (though Mr Smith will have a more informed opinion than mine, no doubt) no matter how well the players at the top are performing and surely that kind of thing will feed through at some point?

 

Our club rugby is in tatters. The regions report 10,000+ attendances - they aren't. They never threaten the later stages of Europe and now (Ospreys aside - ignore this season as they've provided 23 players to the World cup) not even threatening in the Pro 12.

Is that a problem? For the Ospreys it is, Blues, NGD and Scarlets it is. Wales? Absolutely not.

As I see it (and it appears to mirror the view of the WRU) - if a player is playing in England, France etc - he needs to be playing well. Gatland won't go to watch them in the South of France so they need to make sure they're performing. Second, all of our guys getting game time outside of Wales - means less game time for one of our 6 Nations rivals players. Whether its England or France - North is stopping an English 13/14 starting for Northampton, Roberts will stop a 12 coming through at Quins, Jon Davies a 13 in Clermont etc. Finally - the important part for me - the gaps they leave at Welsh Regional - are now being filled by young Welsh players. There's the odd expensive outsider like Josh Matevesi but Ben John wouldn't get game time if Hook was still an Osprey, Corey Allen wouldn't have time if Roberts still at Blues and so forth - its a triple edged sword and ultimately the drive is on the player to ensure his performance levels are good enough to keep people in Wales remembering him.

Lots of others have gone and are forgotten - because they've not kept their standards up - Welsh Rugby is extremely inward looking - so its an extra requirement for the exiles to keep their levels up. I think this is part of why Falatau hasn't signed for Bath.

[chrissmith921]

Even if they wouldnt have made a difference, to cut your options over stubbornness is ridiculous

It isn't stubbornness, is it? It's a policy decision with the intention of minimizing negative effects upon the English leagues of any mass exodus of players to overseas rugby (especially France at the moment).

Whether or not it is the right policy decision is arguable (I think it can go either way though one won't be able to judge for some time yet) but it really shouldn't be looked at in terms that are being discussed (stubbornness/spite and so on). The people who made the call did it on the basis that they believed the long term effect on English rugby (mainly club rugby but also the international side, I guess) of not having in place would be more deleterious than having it in place.

From what I gather, Welsh club rugby isn't in the rudest of health (though Mr Smith will have a more informed opinion than mine, no doubt) no matter how well the players at the top are performing and surely that kind of thing will feed through at some point?

 

Also need to understand how Welsh Rugby is setup in terms of development. These guys are known about at 15/16 that they're going to be a talent - and then they're put to Welsh Premiership to compete against retiring top players and then others who didn't quite make it (but still very good players). There's also a HUGE number of clubs in Wales. I've played for at least 17 clubs myself - there's hundreds of teams. A lot with youth, junior sections. There aren't many blokes who've been raised in Wales who haven't played Rugby - and I hear of it all of the time - there's always people in my village talking of a star 9 year old playing for some team etc - there's teams everywhere and word spreads very quickly of talented players - they get hoovered up by their regional club and they're in the system. I think Cardiff Blues alone have around 30 youth teams of differing ages and 'areas' - they do the same as football - bring in 1000s of kids, keep the very very very best. The rest then end up playing through the system like I have

[snowychap]

Our club rugby is in tatters. The regions report 10,000+ attendances - they aren't. They never threaten the later stages of Europe and now (Ospreys aside - ignore this season as they've provided 23 players to the World cup) not even threatening in the Pro 12.

Is that a problem? For the Ospreys it is, Blues, NGD and Scarlets it is. Wales? Absolutely not.

As I see it (and it appears to mirror the view of the WRU) - if a player is playing in England, France etc - he needs to be playing well. Gatland won't go to watch them in the South of France so they need to make sure they're performing. Second, all of our guys getting game time outside of Wales - means less game time for one of our 6 Nations rivals players. Whether its England or France - North is stopping an English 13/14 starting for Northampton, Roberts will stop a 12 coming through at Quins, Jon Davies a 13 in Clermont etc. Finally - the important part for me - the gaps they leave at Welsh Regional - are now being filled by young Welsh players. There's the odd expensive outsider like Josh Matevesi but Ben John wouldn't get game time if Hook was still an Osprey, Corey Allen wouldn't have time if Roberts still at Blues and so forth - its a triple edged sword and ultimately the drive is on the player to ensure his performance levels are good enough to keep people in Wales remembering him.

Lots of others have gone and are forgotten - because they've not kept their standards up - Welsh Rugby is extremely inward looking - so its an extra requirement for the exiles to keep their levels up. I think this is part of why Falatau hasn't signed for Bath.

Also need to understand how Welsh Rugby is setup in terms of development...

For how long will this be the case, though, that it won't be a problem?

The second post answered a few of the questions that I was otherwise going to pose but I'd say there's still an argument that time hasn't fully played itself out on the consequences of the changes that have taken place over the last decade or so. The kind of top down development model that you've described requires a certain level of financial stability and viability amongst the regions that may be in jeopardy, no?

Edit: Thanks also for the interesting and detailed responses.

Edited October 5, 2015 by snowychap