peterms Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Demitri_C said: Corbyn saying this IS traitor should be brought back and given support. What a great leader he will be A reference in the other thread shows that this is in fact Government policy, as set out by Mr S. Javid, evidently a different one than the imposter who has chucked out a populist soundbite that won't withstand five minutes of legal scrutiny. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: But she married in Syria doesn’t that make her a Syrian citizen .? Who comes up with these stupid laws she has no rights in my view right do wring A Dutchman and a British woman enter Syria illegally with a view to seizing territory, killing Syrians and enslaving them. They decide to marry, so by that act they become Syrian citizens and the responsibility of the Syrian government? Well, as an approach to international law, logic, reason and justice, it has at least the virtue of novelty. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 53 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: But she married in Syria doesn’t that make her a Syrian citizen .? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: A leader who doesn’t get involved in anything then. Anything is different from illegal and immoral wars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 6 hours ago, Xann said: A leader that wouldn't get involved in oil wars and regime changes in the first place. Whilst happily supporting terrorist organisations... I think as moral arguments go your case is somewhat weak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 22, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Dem, I understand your sentiments and I'd say the vast majority of people probably agree with you.* But can you see any possible danger in politicians being able to ignore international law and decide who's British and who isn't? * my nipper is in 6th form, 15 of them had a group discussion on this yesterday and decided 15 to zero that she can stay where she is. . This probably shows that a bunch of 6th formers can make more sense than international law. This is a person who hates this country and has wholeheartedly gone out of her way to leave here and join an ideology which is utterly opposed to this country and its values. But wants to come back for her own reasons when it suits her whilst continuing to claim all she did and thought was still right and actually taunting us about events which shocked our country to the very core. All common sense says she should be told up yours, you made your bed now lie in it. I'm sure the international law governing this is there for good reason but probably not designed for this kind of situation. Jhavid had just played a political game and I don't blame him. The whole country (or 85% of the sane ones) don't want her back. He can't do anything about it so has made the gesture knowing full well it will be overruled so he can shrug his shoulders and say he tried but his hands are tied. There is nothing evil or despicable about that, it's just the way politics works. Edited February 22, 2019 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 8 hours ago, tonyh29 said: I think as moral arguments go your case is somewhat weak We know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 The problem is, where's the line drawn. I can see how an underage ISIS baby machine isn't the sort of person we'd want back. How about those old fella's that do paedo stuff in Cambodia? Yep, probably disown them. Drug smugglers in Thailand? Somebody that committed two murders in Texas? We can't let knee jerk public reactions to portions of stories rule over international law. Which is unpleasant, I know. But this is not a game show. I presume everybody wants draconian tough action against the school, the police and the local authority that all knew what was happening? (don't put me down as an apologist, just working it through) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 Ian Austin quits Labour but has no intention of joining TIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The problem is, where's the line drawn. I can see how an underage ISIS baby machine isn't the sort of person we'd want back. How about those old fella's that do paedo stuff in Cambodia? Yep, probably disown them. Drug smugglers in Thailand? Somebody that committed two murders in Texas? We can't let knee jerk public reactions to portions of stories rule over international law. Which is unpleasant, I know. But this is not a game show. I presume everybody wants draconian tough action against the school, the police and the local authority that all knew what was happening? (don't put me down as an apologist, just working it through) This is the problem that I am facing now. You even hint that you don't think she should have the her citizenship taken away and people react so strongly with 'how can you defend her' bla bla. This is a situation that requires nuanced and critical thinking, but the population simply aren't capable of it anymore (generally speaking) Mob rule. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The problem is, where's the line drawn. I can see how an underage ISIS baby machine isn't the sort of person we'd want back. How about those old fella's that do paedo stuff in Cambodia? Yep, probably disown them. Drug smugglers in Thailand? Somebody that committed two murders in Texas? We can't let knee jerk public reactions to portions of stories rule over international law. Which is unpleasant, I know. With paedos in Cambodia or Drug smugglers in Thailand, or murderers in Texas, those are crystal, really - they are intact sovereign nations with laws and prisons and courts and if someone does a bad there, they go to prison, or the electric chair or whatever. Or we have an exchange treaty where we take them back and throw them in our slammers and the reverse applies if any of their citizens do a bad in the UK.. This one is different. She's in a (I think?) a kurdish enclave in a refugee camp near Turkey, has not be tried or convicted of anything. I definitely agree about not letting kneejerk reactions rule over international law. But also international law is basically not adequate, because this kind of situation is (relatively) new, the law hasn't caught up. "Non- countries and unconvicted wrong 'uns is a bit of a grey area, to say the least. The (out of date) law says let her in, and the UK should, but it's all a mess. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 She'll be back here eventually they just don't want to roll out the red carpet for her. Her time in a war zone may help her survive in east London. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 What kind of example though are we sending by accepting this witch back? So you can go join terrorist organisationsans betray your country but if you don't like it you can come back and maybe we will investigate you? The amount or exposure this story is getting stinks to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: The amount or exposure this story is getting stinks to me. You only have Sajid Javed's grandstanding to blame for that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: What kind of example though are we sending by accepting this witch back? So you can go join terrorist organisationsans betray your country but if you don't like it you can come back and maybe we will investigate you? The amount or exposure this story is getting stinks to me. Its getting the exposure it is due to the emotional nature of it and the populist, mob rule decision taken by Javid. Like it or not, a 19 year old girl having her British citizenship removed is a big deal 8 minutes ago, coda said: She'll be back here eventually they just don't want to roll out the red carpet for her. Her time in a war zone may help her survive in east London. I don’t think anyone, even the most ardent leftie is saying to roll out the red carpet. Bring her back, question, charge (if applicable) , child into care, reintegrate. Edited February 22, 2019 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, blandy said: I definitely agree about not letting kneejerk reactions rule over international law. over 100 citizenships were taken away from Isis returnees in 2017 alone , for whatever reason none of them received the same level of attention as this case ( presumably the baby and that she is female singles this one out) Assuming the the article I just read is correct She doesn't have a Bangladesh passport but she’d automatically qualify for one because she is under 21 and both of her parents are from there Under UK law, the government can strip British citizenship from anyone who is eligible for dual nationality. Which she is: not just due to Bangladeshi law, but under Bangladesh’s constitution. so at face value we aren't putting knee-jerk over international law ? but isn't the clue in the name The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant , she left to fight on their behalf , the least ISIS can do is give her citizenship , thus she wont be left stateless The flip side of the argument is that over 400 jihad fighters have returned to the UK .... of the 400 only 40 have been successfully prosecuted , so if she comes "home" chances are she'll be free to live a normal life ... do we think she will live that normal life ? and how long before some nutter goes after her ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 22, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 22, 2019 There's quite a good Times story from the guy that interviewed her that's with a look at. Can't link currently unfortunately, but he makes good points about what she is like and the situation she is in compared to other jihadi morons he's spoken to previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: but isn't the clue in the name The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant , she left to fight on their behalf , the least ISIS can do is give her citizenship , thus she wont be left stateless I think her hopes will be Daeshed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Putting my legal hat on I'd charge her with joint enterprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: The flip side of the argument is that over 400 jihad fighters have returned to the UK .... of the 400 only 40 have been successfully prosecuted , so if she comes "home" chances are she'll be free to live a normal life ... do we think she will live that normal life ? and how long before some nutter goes after her ? And on the serious bit, blimey! I'm glad I'm not her. Her prospects are grim (as a result of her own actions plus the likely tabloid media actions and nutters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts