magnkarl Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, NurembergVillan said: The most recent reports, 5 or 6 hours ago, didn't mention it. He's been conducting interviews about how he's desperate to get back into the UK because he misses his Mum, and pies. The reporting has been very sympathetic compared to the other high-profile case. The media often recount how he's a Dr Who fan, for instance. He apparently married out there, and fathered a child. He seems to show some level of remorse, but has also said the Bataclan attacks in Paris were "a good thing". We've got high-ranking ministers grandstanding for the public and toadying for the media, and a section of the media (and ergo sections of the public) who are as nice to brown people as they are to white people. Yep, we've got high-ranking ministers grandstanding and media involving themselves against or for in legal cases which in all honesty should be decided in court. Javid should know better and the media should know better. Neither should be allowed to affect a case verdict before it goes to trial. British citizen = British court, unless the country where the idiot did the criminal offense wants to do the trials themselves, in which case I'd be more than happy for Kurdistan to punish these thrill seeking idiots who thought they were going to pillage and rape a whole nation and profit on displacement, murder and religious fundamentalism. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 25, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) Quote The announcement by seven MPs from the UK Labour Party on Monday that they were breaking away and creating a new parliamentary faction marked the biggest internal upheaval in a British political party in nearly 40 years, when the SDP split from Labour. On Wednesday, they were joined by an eighth Labour MP, Joan Ryan, and three Conservative MPs. There are predictions more will follow. With the UK teetering on the brink of crashing out of the European Union with no deal on Brexit, the founders of the so-called Independent Group made reference to their opposition to Brexit. The report decisively undercut their claims – not only of endemic anti-semitism in Labour, but of any significant problem at all The chief concern cited for the split by the eight Labour MPs, though, was a supposed “anti-semitism crisis” in the party. The breakaway faction seemingly agrees that anti-semitism has become so endemic in the party since Jeremy Corbyn became leader more than three years ago that they were left with no choice but to quit. Corbyn, it should be noted, is the first leader of a major British party to explicitly prioritise the rights of Palestinians over Israel’s continuing belligerent occupation of the Palestinian territories. ‘Sickeningly racist’? Luciana Berger, a Jewish MP who has highlighted what she sees as an anti-semitism problem under Corbyn, led the charge, stating at the Independent Group’s launch that she had reached “the sickening conclusion” that Labour was “institutionally racist”. She and her allies claim she has been hounded out of the party by “anti-semitic bullying”. Berger has suffered online abuse and death threats from a young neo-Nazi who was jailed for two years in 2016. There have been other incidences of abuse and other sentences, including a 27-month jail term for John Nimmo, a right-wing extremist who referred to Berger as "Jewish scum" and signed his messages, "your friend, the Nazi". In an interview with the Jewish Chronicle, the former Labour MP said the Independent Group would provide the Jewish community with a “political home that they, like much of the rest of the country, are now looking for”. In a plea to keep the party together, deputy leader Tom Watson issued a video in which he criticised his own party for being too slow to tackle anti-semitism. The situation “poses a test” for Labour, he said, adding: “Do we respond with simple condemnation, or do we try and reach out beyond our comfort zone and prevent others from following?” Ruth Smeeth, another Jewish Labour MP who may yet join a later wave of departures, was reported to have broken down in tears at a parliamentary party meeting following the split, as she called for tougher action on anti-semitism. Two days later, as she split from Labour, Ryan accused the party of being “infected with the scourge of anti-Jewish racism”. The timing of the defections was strange, occurring shortly after the Labour leadership revealed the findings of an investigation into complaints of anti-semitism in the party. These were the very complaints that MPs such as Berger have been citing as proof of the party’s “institutional racism”. And yet, the report decisively undercut their claims – not only of endemic anti-semitism in Labour, but of any significant problem at all. That echoed an earlier report by the Commons home affairs committee, which found there was “no reliable, empirical evidence” that Labour had more of an anti-semitism problem than any other British political party. Nonetheless, the facts seem to be playing little or no part in influencing the anti-semitism narrative. This latest report was thus almost entirely ignored by Corbyn’s opponents and by the mainstream media. It is, therefore, worth briefly examining what the Labour Party’s investigation discovered. Over the previous 10 months, 673 complaints had been filed against Labour members over alleged anti-semitic behaviour, many based on online comments. In a third of those cases, insufficient evidence had been produced. The 453 other allegations represented 0.08 percent of the 540,000-strong Labour membership. Hardly “endemic” or “institutional”, it seems. Certainly, it is unclear how many of those reportedly anti-semitic comments concern not prejudice towards Jews, but rather outspoken criticism of the state of Israel, which was redefined as anti-semitic last year by Labour, under severe pressure from MPs such as Berger and Ryan and Jewish lobby groups, such as the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Labour Movement. Seven of the 11 examples of anti-semitism associated with the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition adopted by Labour concern Israel. That includes describing Israel as a “racist endeavour”, even though Israel passed a basic law last year stripping the fifth of its population who are not Jewish of any right to self-determination, formally creating two classes of citizen. Illustrating the problem Labour has created for itself as a result, some of the most high-profile suspensions and expulsions have actually targeted Jewish members of the party who identify as anti-Zionist – that is, they consider Israel a racist state. They include Tony Greenstein, Jackie Walker, Martin Odoni, Glyn Secker and Cyril Chilson. But paradoxically, the Labour breakaway group may have inadvertently exposed the weakness of its hand. The eight MPs have indicated that they will not run in by-elections, and for good reason: it is highly unlikely they would stand a chance of winning in any of their current constituencies outside the Labour Party. Their decision will also spur moves to begin deselecting those Labour MPs who are openly trying to sabotage the party – and the members’ wishes – from within. That may finally lead to a clearing out of the parliamentary baggage left behind from the Blair era, and allow Labour to begin rebuilding itself as a party ready to deal with the political, social, economic and environmental challenges of the 21st century. Anti-semitism is a cover for a deeper divide Very good article. I recommend reading all of it. Edited February 25, 2019 by Chindie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Chindie said: Certainly, it is unclear how many of those reportedly anti-semitic comments concern not prejudice towards Jews, but rather outspoken criticism of the state of Israel, Trust me, I've seen plenty of the prejudice towards Jews type, from people I know to exist. I posted one such example last week by someone who is quite prominent within Wavertree CLP. So my own empirical evidence. that I trust, outweighs the opinion of the whitewash report and therefore doesn't undercut their claims. The fact that Labour refuses to see what is in plain sight actually strengthens their claims despite what that rather bad article claims as it all hinges on the report, the report is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Quote shortly after the Labour leadership revealed the findings of an investigation into complaints of anti-semitism in the party ... And yet, the report... The 'findings of an investigation', 'the report'. That sounds like it's something official. Perhaps something independent set up to look at this. His link is to this on Labour List which refers to an e-mail sent by Jennie Formby: Quote Labour general secretary Jennie Formby has released data on disciplinary cases ... A Labour spokesperson commented: “Jennie Formby, after obtaining the NEC’s agreement, has published the figures on antisemitism complaints handled by the party and published a report on the work the party has done and is doing to speed up and strengthen our procedures, increasing transparency. So she's just released some raw data (that she didn't want to and wouldn't usually do but, in this instance and given the timing, she thought there was an advantage to be gaineed by doing so. And has appparently published a report in to party procedures. Not quite what I got from reading Mr Cook's original article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 25, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, bickster said: Trust me, I've seen plenty of the prejudice towards Jews type, from people I know to exist. I posted one such example last week by someone who is quite prominent within Wavertree CLP. So my own empirical evidence. that I trust, outweighs the opinion of the whitewash report and therefore doesn't undercut their claims. The fact that Labour refuses to see what is in plain sight actually strengthens their claims despite what that rather bad article claims as it all hinges on the report, the report is wrong. I don't think anyone is denying anti-semitism exists. Or that there are anti-semites within the Labour party. The contention however has been made that the current Labour party is 'institutionally anti-Semitic'. And it really appears that that stands up to no scrutiny at all. I don't doubt you've met people that are anti-semites. What I would question is if your experience is indicative that the party is endemically so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chindie said: I don't think anyone is denying anti-semitism exists. Or that there are anti-semites within the Labour party. The contention however has been made that the current Labour party is 'institutionally anti-Semitic'. And it really appears that that stands up to no scrutiny at all. I don't doubt you've met people that are anti-semites. What I would question is if your experience is indicative that the party is endemically so. Really? No scrutiny at all? It doesn't even seem capable of doing the scrutiny. Numerous complaints have been made, few have been investigated. The problem doesn't exist in Labour because they refuse to allow it to exist. Look how quickly Derek Hatton was suspended last week, yet all the other complaints have had seemingly no action. That is institutionally an issue, so it's a perfectly valid criticism 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 25, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, bickster said: Really? No scrutiny at all? It doesn't even seem capable of doing the scrutiny. Numerous complaints have been made, few have been investigated. The problem doesn't exist in Labour because they refuse to allow it to exist. Look how quickly Derek Hatton was suspended last week, yet all the other complaints have had seemingly no action. That is institutionally an issue, so it's a perfectly valid criticism I've no idea of the number of complaints. Note the percentage investigated. Neither of us are high enough in the Labour party echelons to know to my knowledge, and it doesn't seem like something that would often be published. I'm also unaware of how much of this derives from the party membership. I don't agree with the idea it's a problem being ignored. It can't be. The Party is being attacked all day every day by it. Edited February 25, 2019 by Chindie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chindie said: I've no idea of the number of complaints. Note the percentage investigated. Neither of us are high enough in the Labour party echelons to know to my knowledge, and it doesn't seem like something that would often be published. I'm also unaware of how much of this derives from the party membership. I don't agree with the idea it's a problem being ignored. It can't be. The Party is being attacked all day every day by it. Even by its deputy leader only yesterday, that in itself is an indication of how much its being ignored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 25, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Even by its deputy leader only yesterday, that in itself is an indication of how much its being ignored I don't think it entirely follows that someone that would like to see damage done by an allegation therefore means the allegation is true... I quite like Watson in many ways but it's obvious he's not exactly the best friend of Corbyn and is probably more closely aligned in views with those of the not-Party. He also knows that the anti-semitism narrative is one that's mostly damaging to Corbyn's faction. Him therefore adding to it isn't a ringing endorsement of its truth imo. The other report linked in the 'bad article' is the home affairs committee one. It's critical of Labour. But it concludes it can't say that the Labour party is worse in the anti-semitism stakes than any other party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 Founder of Momentum quoted saying.. And he's not wrong, is he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, blandy said: And he's not wrong, is he. Suits Netanyahu that you think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, Xann said: Suits Netanyahu that you think so. Maybe it does, though I'm not sure he reads VT, Dave! Either way I don't care what suits him. It's a strange thing to claim, really. I mean are you saying he's got to me, tricked me, somehow into believing the founder of Corbyn supporting Momentum? Or perhaps momentum is also working away on behalf of Netanyahu? [taps nose]. How about this twitter thread from a Human rights lawyer explaing why there's a problem, with examples etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, blandy said: How about this twitter thread from a Human rights lawyer explaing why there's a problem, with examples etc. Just read his examples, unimpressed and unconvinced. I'm looking at a genuinely f***ed UK - It's there for all to see - The Irish are laughing at how stupid we are. Yet we can't possibly vote for Corbyn because Jews. The papers, the nobbled BBC and Israel say so. So does big money moving in mysterious ways behind the scenes, hoping to cash in on a post Brexit collapse and swing the UK further to the right. All the effort put in to making the UK cut it's own throat by the psychopaths in suits goes tits up if the Socialist Corbyn gets into No10. So we're looking at him in the papers everyday, whilst Tory voters wonder why there's so many homeless people? Edited February 25, 2019 by Xann comma move 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, Xann said: I'm looking at a genuinely f***ed UK - It's there for all to see - The Irish are laughing at how stupid we are. I know. It's not good. It's desperate. I suppose the only difference is some people see Corbyn as the solution and some see him as part of the problem. Those who see him as some kind of remedy at least have the advantage of hope or faith. All the effort put in to making the UK cut it's own throat by the psychopaths in suits is being helped by Catweazle, so it can be a mess and then he can get into No.10 (in his dreams). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, blandy said: I know. It's not good. It's desperate. I suppose the only difference is some people see Corbyn as the solution and some see him as part of the problem. Those who see him as some kind of remedy at least have the advantage of hope or faith. I'm Green, and let's face facts, they really couldn't have done a worse job than the last two disastrous Tory administrations - Yet still we're left with Red or Blue? Well there's one choice there, and it's not the team with Rees-Mogg and Fat Prick Boris. Even the retard Abbot is preferable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, Xann said: I'm Green, and let's face facts, they really couldn't have done a worse job than the last two disastrous Tory administrations - Yet still we're left with Red or Blue? Well there's one choice there, and it's not the team with Rees-Mogg and Fat Prick Boris. Even the retard Abbot is preferable Yeah, Green tends to get my vote too. Not that it matters, where I live, I wouldn't vote for the tories. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn Labour unless it would stop a tory or UKIP type getting in. With a different leader I'd much more likely vote Labour. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, blandy said: I wouldn't vote for Corbyn Labour unless it would stop a tory or UKIP type getting in. That's the choice we have. Not voting empowers Big Uncaring Money and their Mail/Express/Murdoch reading hordes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 27 minutes ago, blandy said: I wouldn't vote for the tories. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn Labour unless it would stop a tory or UKIP type getting in surely , you should be voting Tory to stop Corbyn getting in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I've said it before, i used to be quite well in with Labour locally for a good few years. Nothing recent, but if all these reports are true, there must have been one hell of a sea change. When I got to sit in smokey rooms and hear the gossip and the dealings, there was not a sniff of anti semitism. There were people happy to boycott anything coming out of Israel, but there was a clear and obvious divide between people's thoughts on Israel and jewish people living in the UK. I'm doing my best to remember back and there was never anything said about anybody in a negative or positive way regarding being jewish. I guess they could have been waiting for me to leave the room before they cracked out the ISIS flags, but I don't think so. The couple of councillors I still keep in touch with are just a million miles removed from this. Genuine question: is it a new thing? or a London thing? or something picked up and run with by anyone anti Corbyn in any way? Baffled by it, don't recognise it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts