The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[HanoiVillan]

3 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

If my post came across as thank God they're moving to the centre then that wasn't my intention. I think I am just being realistic in saying that they need to change and move back to the centre as for three elections now they have moved further and further to the left, been up against increasingly worse Tory leadership/governments, and have lost every time.

The problem with this is that 'the centre' is not a very meaningful concept. When people extol the virtues of 'the centre', they are sometimes redundantly meaning 'popular' (of course it is better to be popular than unpopular!) and sometimes confused about what they mean by 'the centre'. One obvious source of confusion is between the idea of 'the centre' as commonly-held positions amongst the electorate, and the idea of 'the centre' as meaning 'the most moderate members of the two main parties in Westminster'. Notice a good example of this here:

2 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

I'm not sure it's necessarily right wing, I think most of the middle class are socially liberal and financially quite conservative, which I'd call centrist. 

Ignoring the 'most of the middle class' qualifier (why are we only interested in the middle class? Can't win an election with only middle class voters. . .) this describes 'centrist' from the point of view of Westminster politics - because 'moderate' MPs in both main parties may conceive of their politics this way - but does not in any way describe the 'centre' of the electorate. Even if we try to understand voters spatially - and I think it's a bad idea most of the time - if the electorate is split along two axes, of left economic-right economic, liberal-authoritarian (as implied by @sharkyvilla's post here) then the quadrant 'social liberal, fiscal conservative' is *by far* the least occupied quadrant. This is a real minority perspective among the electorate, certainly not anything close to being its 'centre'. If you don't believe me, consider the electoral fortunes of the Liberal Democrats, the party that most closely fit the 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative' positioning.

Another source of confusion about 'the centre' is the idea that it is fixed. This often manifests in people ignoring that history keeps being made around us (it gets easier as we all get older, I guess). 'The centre' of Blair's time in government consisted of reassuring younger boomers - at that point, still in the workforce - that Labour would not fundamentally alter the neoliberal economic consensus that had delivered growth since the early 1980s. This posture had many elements, from the message-based/ideological ('intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich' etc) to the practical (no nationalising anything, keeping restraint on housing supply and pressure on interest rates and inflation to ensure house prices wouldn't fall etc) but the fundamental dynamics of that 'deal' have expired. The financial crisis and austerity happened; those voters have aged out of the workforce; they have been replaced by workers who are more diverse, more insecure, and with fewer assets. Labour cannot simply 'do Blair again', because the world has changed in the intervening quarter of a century.

These two confusions - between 'the centre' as defined by the electorate or Westminster, and in assuming it is a fixed position - can be seen throughout the last decade. In 2015, 'moderate' MPs from both parties were united in believing both that austerity was a necessary and popular approach to the public finances, and that given the chance the British public would show approval of Britain's EU membership. Five years later, and those beliefs turned out not to be the 'centre' of the actual electorate at all. Johnson has not paid any mind at all to what people on this thread might conceive of as 'the centre'.

[HanoiVillan]

42 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Sorry to back up a bit, but while the 2017 result was far better than expected for Labour I don't see how this is the case.

There was a 55 seat margin between Corbyn's Labour and May's Conservatives (317 vs 262). In 2010 there were 48 seats between Brown and Cameron (306 vs 258).

The narrative appears to be that "a couple of thousand more votes and with backing from other parties then Corbyn would have been Prime Minister". But when those parties were given the chance to do just that in 2019 they decided that throwing the cards in the air and having an election was a more attractive option than backing a Corbyn government. 

So Brown in 2010 was far closer to power (both in terms of distance from a majority and possibility of coalition /C&S) than Corbyn was in 2017.

You're right to point out that the realpolitik of 2017-2019 shows that a Corbyn-led coalition was not a genuine possibility, but you're ignoring that the same dynamic was also true in 2010 (Clegg was never going to support Brown). The first three points are right, but not the last one.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

Sorry to back up a bit, but while the 2017 result was far better than expected for Labour I don't see how this is the case.

There was a 55 seat margin between Corbyn's Labour and May's Conservatives (317 vs 262). In 2010 there were 48 seats between Brown and Cameron (306 vs 258).

The narrative appears to be that "a couple of thousand more votes and with backing from other parties then Corbyn would have been Prime Minister". But when those parties were given the chance to do just that in 2019 they decided that throwing the cards in the air and having an election was a more attractive option than backing a Corbyn government. 

So Brown in 2010 was far closer to power (both in terms of distance from a majority and possibility of coalition /C&S) than Corbyn was in 2017.

You're quite right, but I wasn't making a point about closest Labour came to being in power. I said the closest anyone came to breaking that cycle. The Brown front bench was still the Blairites and while Brown wasn't exactly in with Murdoch, they weren't exactly enemies either. The Corbynite front bench took a running jump at Murdoch and would have completed the Leveson inquiry to remove Murdoch's power.

[Chindie]

4 hours ago, darrenm said:

I've come to the very sad conclusion that the UK is actually very right wing and it's incredibly depressing. I always thought that underneath it all, the UK is quite left wing because of the welfare state and the reformers. But I guess that when people keep voting for the right, when the working class are the ones who vote for a more unequal society and tell the more educated who vote for the left that they don't want their help, then at some point you can no longer deny it.

The UK is fairly right wing. We don't like to accept that - I'll probably get quoted to point out how wrong this opinion is - but there's still a lot of prejudices (petty and otherwise) and fundamentally an 'I'm alright Jack' foundation. Theres obviously some left flag markers - the NHS is predominantly loved, outright flagrant racism isn't outwardly shown, there's fairly widespread support for a benefit support system - but there's also still things like pernicious racism, there's still a widespread nationalism, there's no desire to tackle many of the issues that society faces.

This gets handwaved as loopy lefties focusing on minute things that don't matter, that don't sell to society. But this ignores that society ain't buying... But it will buy the stuff sold by the team that doesn't give a **** about any of that.

In darker moments I often think it would be easier to be right wing and not give a ****.

[bobzy]

2 hours ago, avfcDJ said:

The power is with the media and the media is right wing. The pro Conservative stories sway opinion. Sort the media and we will see change.

True to an extent, but people are actually just mostly selfish words removed (and therefore, vote to the right).

Anecdotally, I find people have the most outrage/hatred for people who claim benefits, foreigners coming into the country and not paying taxes(?!?!) and people who vandalise/steal things.  Corbyn used to be on the list too.  

[darrenm]

The NHS clapping thing really slammed it home to me.

At the start of the pandemic, absolutely everyone was treating the NHS workers as heroes. Almost no-one would show disrespect by not clapping every Thursday.

Then once people were a bit bored and then the NHS workers were asking for more money, they were lazy and wasting time on tiktok videos. Only the ones who didn't make tiktoks should be considered for pay rises.

People love socialism when dressed up as the NHS until there's a group of people who can be marginalised. In that case, it was freeloading NHS workers. Identify the weakest and isolate them.

[LondonLax]

Whether you consider the U.K. ‘left wing’ or ‘right wing’ really depends on what you are comparing it to.  

Compared to Western Europe the U.K. comes of as fairly right wing but compared with Anglo Saxon allies like the US or Australia the U.K. is fairly left wing. 

[Chindie]

48 minutes ago, darrenm said:

The NHS clapping thing really slammed it home to me.

At the start of the pandemic, absolutely everyone was treating the NHS workers as heroes. Almost no-one would show disrespect by not clapping every Thursday.

Then once people were a bit bored and then the NHS workers were asking for more money, they were lazy and wasting time on tiktok videos. Only the ones who didn't make tiktoks should be considered for pay rises.

People love socialism when dressed up as the NHS until there's a group of people who can be marginalised. In that case, it was freeloading NHS workers. Identify the weakest and isolate them.

In fairness I'm one of those that didn't clap for the NHS. I'm fully in support of the NHS and would chuck as much money as possible at it and the people keeping it going.

Clapping just felt like a completely cynical gesture achieving nothing while the real problem had been clapped into power...

[TrentVilla]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

In fairness I'm one of those that didn't clap for the NHS. I'm fully in support of the NHS and would chuck as much money as possible at it and the people keeping it going.

Clapping just felt like a completely cynical gesture achieving nothing while the real problem had been clapped into power...

It was the most pointless piece of virtue signaling I think I've ever seen

[HanoiVillan]

42 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Whether you consider the U.K. ‘left wing’ or ‘right wing’ really depends on what you are comparing it to.  

Compared to Western Europe the U.K. comes of as fairly right wing but compared with Anglo Saxon allies like the US or Australia the U.K. is fairly left wing. 

It feels to me like a comparison that is fractionally better than completely useless, without actually being particularly useful.

Which country is more 'right wing', the UK or France? On the one hand, the French go on strike frequently, more of their economy is nationalised, and they subsidise the arts fulsomely. On the other hand, they're even keener on using their army overseas, they like their police to be pretty brutal, and you're more likely to hear Islamophobic and antisemitic bigotry from senior politicians. Which of these should I care about more, when I evaluate how 'right wing' the countries are?

[NurembergVillan]

18 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

It was the most pointless piece of virtue signaling I think I've ever seen

I agree. Even worse than Cookie Monster remembering the fallen...

[Dodgyknees]

38 minutes ago, Chindie said:

In fairness I'm one of those that didn't clap for the NHS. I'm fully in support of the NHS and would chuck as much money as possible at it and the people keeping it going.

Clapping just felt like a completely cynical gesture achieving nothing while the real problem had been clapped into power...

Same here mate 

[Dodgyknees]

16 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I agree. Even worse than Cookie Monster remembering the fallen...

What the ****

[HanoiVillan]

44 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

What the ****

Same energy

[Follyfoot]

Honest question, is there any objection to the wearing of the poppy that I have missed or even deems it in appropriate or right wing? I’ve seen it appear to be criticised a few times in posts and always wondered, no angle just a question 

[darrenm]

13 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Honest question, is there any objection to the wearing of the poppy that I have missed or even deems it in appropriate or right wing? I’ve seen it appear to be criticised a few times in posts and always wondered, no angle just a question 

I think it's just the nigh on fascism of being forced to wear one. People should be free to choose how they respect the dead, or even if they do or not. Being all "where's your **** poppy?!" about it is not how a free society should work.

[Follyfoot]

29 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I think it's just the nigh on fascism of being forced to wear one. People should be free to choose how they respect the dead, or even if they do or not. Being all "where's your **** poppy?!" about it is not how a free society should work.

I get that and it is a bit of a oxymoron that those who made the ultimate sacrifice did so to deafest fascism and to give us the free society in which we live. For the record I very rarely wear a poppy but always stick a fair few quid in the tin of the old lady who goes door to door selling them for the Legion. I have more issue with people who don’t observe the two minutes silence

Edited September 28, 2020 by Follyfoot

[blandy]

16 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

The problem with the centre is that it isn't where it used to be - it seems to drift further and further right.

I have a problem with the general definition of “the left” in particular. For example, take social attitudes. Currently there are numerous illiberal stances taken by people who would call themselves left wing and, come to think of it, there are stances taken by some on the right on the economy, say, which are not at all “let the market decide”.  I think what I’m saying is there is more of a range, a wider range and that left and right is no use to describe a three dimensional situation.  Society generally is less racist, less bigoted, more tolerant than say 40 years ago. Economically the Reagan/Thatcher model is mostly on its way out of favour, or headed that way. The biggest issues are climate change, public health and these are areas where, overall the public is more to the left than it used to be. So no, the centre has only moved right if you have a very narrow view of what constitutes left and right - all IMO, of course, other opinions may be better.

[Dodgyknees]

9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Same energy

**** hell

[Follyfoot]

9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Same energy

Last time Prince Andrew was seen in public?