The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The issue here isn't if we'll have the money or not, it's more about clear cut policy. Either we leave in which we will have to suffer the consequences which any sane person can predict, or we stay, in which we'll have to follow the rules of the union. The fiscal compliance rules in the EU prevent member states to go above a certain amount of deficit and debt - while outside the EU (which it seems both main parties want) we'd be allowed to hemorrhage cash and take up loans. I'm not sure if such a situation would be a great time to open the social welfare taps.

Social mobility and freedoms would possibly increase with a 30 hour free child-care policy like in Norway, Denmark etc, but I frankly don't see it feasible if we'll have to deal with the fallout of Brexit for the next 5-10 years. Last time I heard anything about these stats we're sitting at something like 120% of our GDP in debt while Denmark and other social-democratic states in Northern Europe are at around 40-50%. The starting point of this policy is already fairly awful for us, so social democratic reform from Labour needs to actually take our financial stand point into account before pretending that a policy like that would be possible to implement. 

I'm all for social welfare, though I'd rather not end up like some of the most recent failed socialistic states where there's no balance.

By all means I'd also love for us to stop spending cash on "#¤"#¤ like "the Festival of Brexit", Mogg's foreign portfolio, or ludicrous amounts of cash sent into our politicians accounts every year.

 

by all accounts we were quite strapped for cash just after WWII

 

we created the NHS

 

 

 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

 

by all accounts we were quite strapped for cash just after WWII

 

we created the NHS

 

we weren't strapped for cash because we borrowed £3.5Bn from the USA  * about £140bn in today money ?  ) to fund it   ..but hey we paid it back in 2006 so all is cool

interesting it prompted Bevin to state " We are  in the hands of Shylock " ..seems some things never change in the labour party

 

 

[chrisp65]

see, some people are gammon, and some people give pro gammon arguments for the sake of discussing a point

I can live with gammon for debating and sparring and educational porpoises, that's fine.

Hadn't even heard of Bevin before.

 

[blandy]

On 01/10/2018 at 20:31, peterms said:

Yes.  A lot of people seem to think that before we can afford things like health, education and so on, we have to gather up notes and coins, or the electronic equivalent, from people and companies, but that no such constraint exists when we want to do something like renew Trident, or bomb some more people to death.

If we wish to provide more childcare, the constraint is suitable and available workers and premises, not "there's no money".

It's interesting that in both the US and here, the scare stories about "the deficit" have faded into the background when the right wing want to spend, just enough mention to maks it credible to renew them at a time of the media's choosing, but not the hysteria that acts as a brake on spending thet we see whenever an alternative set of policies emerge.

That's true. And it covers two seperate things - 1. money and other resources and 2. media  planted or led care stories. The second one can be ignored in terms of the first.

The allocation of resources, and there is a limit on them, both financial and human is the main one, obviiously. Things like brexit and losing "unskilled" EU or other nation workers due to immigration controls that both Labour and the tories want will clearly work against actually making this idea work (the 30 hour childcase idea). Equally, the budget financially, as MacDonell and Hammond etc. acknowledge has to be costed. The tories did things the wrong was round, as per other threads - curtting when they should have been stimulating growth by investing in infrastructure etc. and now, eventually, they're thinking about responding to Labour's "appeal" by opening the taps, when the opposite ought to have been happening if they'd initially invested. Whoeever governs next, they are faced with the mess caused by Osborne and Hammond to a lesser extent. Realistically money for childcare (good) will have to come from somewhere - other planned expenditure, new debt, higher taxes, whatever. Labour policy is to keep trident, not bombing people will not save money (it'll cost money). Morally it'd be nice not to have us bomb people perhaps. Though bombing ISIS nobbers in Iraq and Syria has its upsides. It's not a crystal clear issue and isn't realistically going to make a jot of difference in terms of childcare or not in the UK.

[peterms]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

. Realistically money for childcare (good) will have to come from somewhere - other planned expenditure, new debt, higher taxes, whatever.

Not from other spending or taxes, assuming the arbitrary and senseless accounting targets adopted by this government are abandoned.  "Debt" if it is wished to issue interest bearing instruments for other policy reasons, eg to benefit our pension funds, but it is not required in order to fund things.  The actual net cost will be small and the benefit great, and creating fulfilling jobs meeting social purpose is a pretty good thing for any government to be doing, compared to many other policy choices (of which funding war is one example).

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, peterms said:

Not from other spending or taxes, assuming the arbitrary and senseless accounting targets adopted by this government are abandoned.

It should come from taxes, IMO. Both for political reasons and for financial reasons. Major trans-national companies, Amazon, Apple, Google etc. don't pay enough tax and they harm high street vendors in most instances. Them getting fairly taxed ought to be a priority. We've seen Amazon up wages as a result of a growing realisation of their exploitative conditions for workers, and the tide needs to turn more. SO it's both a good signal to address the imbalance they have and also good financially to use that extra tax revenue to do "good" things, including for example childcare to create jobs and help people with young kids themselves find work. Funding it from more debt does no one any favours.

[peterms]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

It should come from taxes, IMO. Both for political reasons and for financial reasons. Major trans-national companies, Amazon, Apple, Google etc. don't pay enough tax and they harm high street vendors in most instances. Them getting fairly taxed ought to be a priority. We've seen Amazon up wages as a result of a growing realisation of their exploitative conditions for workers, and the tide needs to turn more. SO it's both a good signal to address the imbalance they have and also good financially to use that extra tax revenue to do "good" things, including for example childcare to create jobs and help people with young kids themselves find work. Funding it from more debt does no one any favours.

Agree we should be taxing more, and more effectively, for reasons of social justice, redistribution, and fairness to other businesses.  But we don't need to tax in order to fund government spending - it's about the factors you mention, and also managing demand to control inflation, not because we couldn't do these things without taxing.

[peterms]

I'd forgotten about this, but he's right, it needs to be refreshed in the collective memory now and again.

 

[snowychap]

Short contracts forcing Labour staff to use food banks, insider claims

Quote

An anonymous Labour staffer has alleged that colleagues have been forced to use payday lenders and food banks because of insecure short-term contracts, and has called on party members to lobby management for better working conditions.

In an article for LabourList, the employee said colleagues received “intolerable abuse” from some Labour members while working in the party’s communications headquarters in Newcastle and had difficulty making ends meet.

They said many Labour employees were on insecure 12-hour week contracts, sometimes for just a couple of months.

“I know of colleagues who have used payday lenders, I know of colleagues who have been to food banks and I know of colleagues who are now in long-term debt,” the staffer wrote.

...

Labour’s general secretary Jennie Formby tweeted in response to the story saying that she would respond to the points raised and had personally overseen a wage increase for staff.

... more on link

Jeremy Corbyn aides get bumper pay awards of up to 26 per cent

Quote

Jeremy Corbyn has dished out bumper pay rises of up to 26 per cent “for the few” close aides who work in his private office, the Evening Standard can reveal.

Former Guardian journalist Seumas Milne is now the highest-paid member of the Labour leader’s private office team, with a salary of £101,855.

The Winchester-educated strategy and communications chief had a rise of £2,408, or 2.4 per cent, from £99,447, records kept at the House of Commons reveal. But catching up with him on the pay front are two of Mr Corbyn’s most influential advisers.

Head of policy Andrew Fisher’s pay packet has swollen by more than a quarter, from £71,938 to £90,704, a rise of £18,766 or 26 per cent.

...

Asked to explain the rises, a Labour Party spokesman said: “We do not comment on staffing matters.”

... more on link

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by snowychap

[snowychap]

Labour MP's brother admits perverting course of justice

Quote

Festus Onasanya admits three charges, while Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya faces trial next week

The brother of a Labour MP has admitted perverting the course of justice by lying to police about who was driving a speeding car.

Festus Onasanya admitted three counts of perverting the course of justice, a week before he was due to face trial with Fiona Onasanya, the MP for Peterborough.

The Labour politician, 34, and her 33-year-old brother were jointly accused of misinforming Cambridgeshire police about who was responsible for driving a speeding vehicle on 24 July 2017.

It was alleged they named a man called Aleks Antipow as being behind the wheel to avoid prosecution.

The MP’s brother, a singer who lives with his mother in Chesterton, Cambridge, pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice in relation to the incident.

He also pleaded guilty to two further charges of perverting the course of justice, which involved blaming someone else for two separate speeding incidents on 17 June and 23 August last year.

The singer, who is on a tour of the Midlands and Scotland with his band, was bailed by Judge Nicholas Hilliard QC at the Old Bailey. He is due to be sentenced at the conclusion of his sister’s trial.

Onasanya, who was a solicitor before her election to parliament, is a Labour whip, responsible for party discipline.

She has denied perverting the course of justice and faces trial at the Old Bailey on 12 November.

 

[magnkarl]

A Labour frontbencher has been reported to Parliament's standards watchdog over her son's drugs conviction.

These so called socialists crack me up. Your son gets caught with 2k's worth of all kinds of drugs, you call people who ask why he's still in your staff racist and then you promote him. 

[chrisp65]

 

[ml1dch]

 

 

 

[lapal_fan]

It's great with all the information we have at our fingertips - we can just dig shit up on everyone and basically tell our kids that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I'm going to tell my lad to be train robber, high risk, high reward - only have to get it right once or twice to retire.  A bit like bitcoin investment. 

Everyone is a bastard. 

[tonyh29]

5 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

It's great with all the information we have at our fingertips - we can just dig shit up on everyone and basically tell our kids that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I'm going to tell my lad to be train robber, high risk, high reward - only have to get it right once or twice to retire.  A bit like bitcoin investment. 

Everyone is a bastard. 

hope your lad is a patient boy , when Corbyn takes us back to British Rail the trains will take a week to turn up

 

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

hope your lad is a patient boy , when Corbyn takes us back to British Rail the trains will take a week to turn up

 

 

Which it has to be said, is a week earlier than they currently turn up

[bickster]

This thread is a decent read. Halfway down, he outright calls Corbyn a liar (when he claims he doesn't drink)

 

[HanoiVillan]

Thank God The Times didn't miss any of the important issues:

 

[StefanAVFC]

The official opposition position should now be People's Vote or Remain. There is no excuse in not taking a side now.

[bickster]

Meanwhile, Jezza is out hunting unicorns