The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Chindie]

I'm not a Corbyn fan (tick off your scorecards) and think there is an issue with anti-Semitism still. I'm not convinced it's a uniquely Labour problem. A poll doing the rounds recently showed that it was a more prevalent problem in the Conservative wings, and it had actually improved under Corbyn in the Labour camp iirc. 

With that stance in mind, as someone without a dog in the race, the whole thing stinks of opportunism that has only reeked worse as it's gone on. Perhaps I'm wrong. I still don't particularly like Corbyn (full house!). It just seems to be a crisis that was increasingly manufactured, and blew away any genuine sentiment rapidly.

[magnkarl]

Like people have been saying throughout this thread - there isn't much of a disparity between racists in either party. The difference, as Blandy put it, is that Corbyn is from the wing in Labour which has had quite some people who conflate their emotional responses to a conflict in the Middle-East with holocaust denying and racism because of it.

The fact that Corbyn is a supporter of Hamas and other dubious groups just makes him a bit of a t"%t really, and shows nothing more than him being stuck in the same state of mind as most people early on in their political careers. If he can't understand that he needs to be a uniting force to be a successful PM and leader of the opposition then his party needs to find someone else for the job.

When Theresa May attends dinners with idiotic groups she gets to hear it from Corbyn's supporters like there is no tomorrow - however when Corbyn attends a dinner with n pretty extreme left leaning group everyone's supposed to be silent? Where's the rational in that?

Edited April 9, 2018 by magnkarl

[OutByEaster?]

27 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

There isn't much of a disparity between racists in either party. The difference, as Blandy put it, is that Corbyn is from the wing in Labour which has had quite some people who conflate their emotional responses to a conflict in the Middle-East with holocaust denying and racism because of it.

As opposed to good old fashioned proper racists on the other side? 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here - your sentence reads "I agree that there's not too much difference between the racisms present in the two parties - apart from that one party are really different and racist."

Quote

When Theresa May attends dinners with idiotic groups she gets to hear it from Corbyn's supporters like there is no tomorrow - however when Corbyn attends a dinner with n pretty extreme left leaning group everyone's supposed to be silent? Where's the rational in that?

I can only imagine that this is some form of sarcasm. We're in the middle of a near unprecedented campaign of media against the Czech spy, racist member of the IRA, Hamas and the Communist Party, with almost constant criticism on the front pages of two or three of our biggest selling newspapers for the dangerous, unhinged Russian stooge. We're at a point where the BBC has had more criticism for bias than it's had in a long time and where Teresa May has been almost invisible for months, avoiding criticism by very nearly pretending not to exist. If everyone's supposed to be silent on Corbyn, it's the worst job of it I've ever seen.

 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

We're in the middle of a near unprecedented campaign of media against the Czech spy, racist member of the IRA, Hamas and the Communist Party, with almost constant criticism on the front pages of two or three of our biggest selling newspapers for the dangerous, unhinged Russian stooge. We're at a point where the BBC has had more criticism for bias than it's had in a long time and where Teresa May has been almost invisible for months, avoiding criticism by very nearly pretending not to exist. If everyone's supposed to be silent on Corbyn, it's the worst job of it I've ever seen.

There's about 3 or 4 different things in there.

Yes, the tory press has been digging at Corbyn for a while, and some of it is ludicrous (Czech spy stuff for example). Other aspects of it are not without foundation. It might have been a while back, but his IRA sympathising, Hamas and Hizbollah embracing past is fair game. Ditto his communist regime admiring viewpoint. His handling of anti semitism and of Russian CW attacks has been genuinely lamentable and absolutely fair game for media criticism. He continues to associate with nutters.

And it's not like there hasn't been a torrent of scorn pointed at May at times, too. SHe's regularly ridiculed for robotic, "Maybot" responses from the Grenfell fire to election haplessness to being in the hock of Russian donors and all the rest of it.

Both May and Corbyn give the media plently of ammunition to use against them. If they weren't so effing useless, they'd get less stick.

The accusations of BBC bias, they are getting a lot of grief - whether it's being pro Corbyn and May on Brexit  or anti Corbyn by the various Corbynite apostles on twitter. Par for the course, really. If you're enthusiastic for something or someone such as Corbyn or stopping Brexit and the BBC isn't acting as your mouthpiece or reflecting your views, then you complain about it on twitter. It's just what happens.

Theresa May has also repeatedly been in the news media in a bad way for the mess that Brexit is turning into, for being too weak to sack Boris Johnson and so on. People see what they want to see.

[Demitri_C]

Corbyn was at my local greek church front row on the weekend in North London for Greek Easter. Have to say I was stunned he was there.  

 

[tonyh29]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Corbyn was at my local greek church front row on the weekend in North London for Greek Easter. Have to say I was stunned he was there.  

 

I've got him in the Deapool 2018 , couldn't you have accidently  reversed over him 16 times  as he left  , the Russian ambassador would be able to spin it so that there is doubt as to who actually did and VT will end up saying it's Boris's fault  ..winners all round

[Demitri_C]

25 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I've got him in the Deapool 2018 , couldn't you have accidently  reversed over him 16 times  as he left  , the Russian ambassador would be able to spin it so that there is doubt as to who actually did and VT will end up saying it's Boris's fault  ..winners all round

He did come across very well though I must admit and I dont particularly like him. 

[PompeyVillan]

40 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

He did come across very well though I must admit and I dont particularly like him. 

Don't be fooled, he's been known to conspire with the IRA during the troubles, Czech spies during the cold war, Hamas anytime he feels like it and Diane Abbot after a bottle of red. He's treasonous and would like to betray to will of the people, if only he could figure out how. 

His followers are both facists and communists. They are anti semites and hate Britishness. Corbyn encourages followers to worship him like some sort of cultic figurehead and indoctrinates young people with promises of free things. 

He never used to wear a tie and chooses not to sing the national anthem. He finds rememberance day funny and is a stooge for the Russian government. He even lied about being on a busy train. 

My memory is pretty shady though, I'm sure he's been up to much more that we haven't heard about yet. 

All in all, he's a bad hombre. 

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

Don't be fooled, he's been known to conspire with the IRA during the troubles, Czech spies during the cold war, Hamas anytime he feels like it and Diane Abbot after a bottle of red. He's treasonous and would like to betray to will of the people, if only he could figure out how. 

His followers are both facists and communists. They are anti semites and hate Britishness. Corbyn encourages followers to worship him like some sort of cultic figurehead and indoctrinates young people with promises of free things. 

He never used to wear a tie and chooses not to sing the national anthem. He finds rememberance day funny and is a stooge for the Russian government. He even lied about being on a busy train. 

My memory is pretty shady though, I'm sure he's been up to much more that we haven't heard about yet. 

All in all, he's a bad hombre. 

He's a bit like Bruce really. He's played a defensive hoof style all his life and now that he's finally asked to step up and be a leader he's in all sort of problems trying to be palatable to a broader audience than the typical audience he gets at gender studies classes around the country. 

The worst thing here is that his biggest rival is just as bad. They've both got the presence of a slug that got caught on the m25 on the hottest day of the year.

[PompeyVillan]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

He's a bit like Bruce really. He's played a defensive hoof style all his life and now that he's finally asked to step up and be a leader he's in all sort of problems trying to be palatable to a broader audience than the typical audience he gets at gender studies classes around the country. 

The worst thing here is that his biggest rival is just as bad. They've both got the presence of a slug that got caught on the m25 on the hottest day of the year.

Nice one, I forgot to mention that Corbyn supporters are all gender studies students/snowflakes, etc. 

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

Nice one, I forgot to mention that Corbyn supporters are all gender studies students/snowflakes, etc. 

That's why we spent the noughties trying to pack the uni's with them! Just ten years later, 40% of the electorate are current or former gender studies students. Great ROI. 

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

Nice one, I forgot to mention that Corbyn supporters are all gender studies students/snowflakes, etc. 

One thing in all this silly stereotyping lark, is that the ones that get parodied as snowflakes and what have you are generally (more stereotyping) really anti Brexit, while Corbyn is really rather pro Brexit. At some point, if that kind of trope is true, there's going to be a lot of wailing and a whining going on somewhere down the line. And all the anti Brexit, pro Europe elements within the Labour parliament are all the ones that Corbyn's chums and his more moody followers are trying to unseat and deselect and do away with. They're all rather ludicrously being called Red Tories and such like for not getting with the 1970s programme, man. 

[PompeyVillan]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

One thing in all this silly stereotyping lark, is that the ones that get parodied as snowflakes and what have you are generally (more stereotyping) really anti Brexit, while Corbyn is really rather pro Brexit. At some point, if that kind of trope is true, there's going to be a lot of wailing and a whining going on somewhere down the line. And all the anti Brexit, pro Europe elements within the Labour parliament are all the ones that Corbyn's chums and his more moody followers are trying to unseat and deselect and do away with. They're all rather ludicrously being called Red Tories and such like for not getting with the 1970s programme, man. 

That's another good one. The winter of discontent and all that. He's all up for that. And a run on the £. (Sorry!)

Fwiw the Brexit issue has been covered many times in this thread. It's caused a clear divide in Labour but not a chasm. Whilst Corbyn is arguably pro Brexit (I think he is), it's not an issue that either he or the Labour party as a whole own.

So for what it's worth, it's a lot more palatable for anti Brexit supporters to accept that Brexit is going to happen when they can rightly blame the Conservatives for the whole mess. I don't see it coming to a head. 

It's easy to then holla 'three line whip' at Corbyn, but I'm not quite sure that's a particularly wise critism. The Lib Dems are now the ardent anti Brexit party, and it's not proved a vote winning strategy (perhaps in part because you can't believe a word they say). 

Corbyn gets accused of populism, which I find odd, because there's one sure way of failing and that's unpopularism. Block Brexit, whether you are idealogcally for or against it and 100% of those that voted to leave the EU will feel betrayed and a significant enough proportion of those that voted to remain would sympathise with that view. 

Let the Tories own Brexit, when it inevitably tanks at the next election use it as a stick to beat them with (ala global banking crisis 2010). Perhaps a bit disingenuous because Brexit will tank regardless of who's at the rudder. 

 

[snowychap]

Barry Gardiner's got to be on his way out, surely?

[NurembergVillan]

29 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Barry Gardiner's got to be on his way out, surely?

All those knee injuries meant he'd never fulfil his potential.  He's not really torn up any trees on loan at Barnsley either.

He signed that 4 year contract recently though, so I think we're stuck with him.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, snowychap said:

Barry Gardiner's got to be on his way out, surely?

I know. Recorded telling the truth. Can't be having that.

Quote

Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, is understood to have raised Gardiner’s comments about the Good Friday agreement with Corbyn’s office, and is expected to make a second complaint on Tuesday.

Starmer has repeatedly demanded that any Brexit deal achieves “the exact same benefits” as the current relationship with the European Union. It was one of six tests set a year ago, just before article 50 was triggered, setting the negotiations in progress.

Gardiner is recorded ridiculing the proposal to have the same benefits – “It’s bollocks. Always has been bollocks” – and goes on to dismiss the whole strategy of the six tests.

“We know very well that we cannot have the exact same benefits. And actually, you know, it would have made sense, because it was the Tories that said they were going to secure the exact same benefits, and our position should have been precisely to say: ‘They have said that they will secure the exact same benefits and we are going to hold them to that standard.’”

Gardiner then pours scorn on the idea of holding a “meaningful vote” in parliament on the final deal – Labour’s proudest achievement during the passage of the bill.

“You tell me what a meaningful vote is? Is a meaningful vote one where you have alternatives and you reject one and you opt for the other. If so, what are the alternatives? … What we’re going to have is, at best, clarity about the divorce settlement.”

He suggested the most likely result would be the downfall of Theresa May, but even that would not resolve anything.

“What is the new prime minister, the new leader of the Conservative party going to be able to do as a result of that parliamentary vote? Do they go back and try to renegotiate a different deal in Europe? Well there’s no time for that. Do they hold a general election?”

Labour has not formally addressed the question of what should happen if the deal is unacceptable to the Commons. 

In remarks that will further infuriate his shadow cabinet colleagues, Gardiner warns: “Do not underestimate the fact that any politician who tells you what’s going to happen in September/October around that final deal is lying to you. None of us know, none of us, because it is the biggest constitutional crisis that our country has faced in about 40 or 50 years and we simply don’t see a clear way through it at the moment. It’s going piece by piece, staggering.”

Can't say I've much time for him, but he's right, isn't he?

[Chindie]

If nothing else Gardiner should be on his way thanks to the precedent set by binning Owen Smith.

[snowychap]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

I know. Recorded telling the truth. Can't be having that.

Can't say I've much time for him, but he's right, isn't he?

Well, not really. Recorded saying something and yet in public (i.e. his website) apparently saying something else. I'm not sure that he and the truth are necessarily best chums.

You also appear to have missed out the first three paragraphs of the article:

Quote

Barry Gardiner, the shadow trade secretary and Jeremy Corbyn loyalist, has described Labour’s six tests on Brexit as “bollocks”, ridiculed the “meaningful vote” on the deal that Labour MPs fought for and said “any politician who tells you what’s going to happen … around that final deal is lying to you”.

His remarks, caught on tape at a question and answer session after a speech in Germany last month, are the most disruptive within Labour since the general election cemented Corbyn’s position as party leader. They will be regarded by some in the shadow cabinet as a deliberate attempt to wreck Labour’s carefully negotiated position on Brexit.

The recording emerged hours after Gardiner was forced to apologise for suggesting that the Good Friday agreement was outdated, a suggestion made at the same event in Brussels.

That's the same kind of thing that the likes of Gove, Hannan et al. have been criticized quite heavily for saying.

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Well, not really. Recorded saying something and yet in public (i.e. his website) apparently saying something else. I'm not sure that he and the truth are necessarily best chums.

You also appear to have missed out the first three paragraphs of the article:

That's the same kind of thing that the likes of Gove, Hannan et al. have been criticized quite heavily for saying.

Oh, I agree his website and his spoken words are different. No problem there.

Not sure I share your take of the rest of it. Anyway, as I read what he said, it seems (to me) to be a self evidently accurate summary of things. Essentially that Labour's (and the Gov'ts including Gove etc. position is untenable and doesn't match the reality and is dishonest). Perhaps I'm missing something?

ps the GFA stuff he said was idiotic. I wasn't talking about that.

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Oh, I agree his website and his spoken words are different. No problem there.

Not sure I share your take of the rest of it. Anyway, as I read what he said, it seems (to me) to be a self evidently accurate summary of things. Essentially that Labour's (and the Gov'ts including Gove etc. position is untenable and doesn't match the reality and is dishonest). Perhaps I'm missing something?

ps the GFA stuff he said was idiotic. I wasn't talking about that.

I was talking about all of the things he said.

I believe on twitter he maintained that his position was as per his website and that appears to be the position that the Labour leadership are taking.

Are you not missing that for him to call the party's position bollocks and then to say that he still supports it is, frankly, bollocks.

If his name were Owen Smith, he'd have been canned immediately.