The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Risso]

Oh Je-re-my Corbyn

You’re an anti-semitic bell-end.

[PompeyVillan]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

The question of 'who's more in touch with the Labour Party, Owen Smith or Jeremy Corbyn' might be considered to have been settled fairly comprehensively in recent history. 

It'll be interesting to see how Labour do in local elections. 

[bickster]

4 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

The question of 'who's more in touch with the Labour Party, Owen Smith or Jeremy Corbyn' might be considered to have been settled fairly comprehensively in recent history. 

Now if only that was what I said, you’d maybe have a point

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Now if only that was what I said, you’d maybe have a point

Please feel free to correct me on what you are saying. 

[bickster]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

Please feel free to correct me on what you are saying. 

Please feel free to reread what I said

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Please feel free to reread what I said

I've given it several good-faith attempts, and I can't see that I've mischaracterised your point. 

[bickster]

5 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I've given it several good-faith attempts, and I can't see that I've mischaracterised your point. 

Alright I’ll explain it to you. At no point did I say Owen Smith was more in touch with the Labour Party on a wide range of issues, which is what a leadership election is fought on. I said however that Corbyn is out of touch with the vast majority of opinions both within the parliamentary party and the wider membership on Brexit, you won’t find a single poll that disputes that anywhere. And despite what Corbyn might say, Brexit is the biggest single issue in the country by far and the leader of the opposition isn't doing anything to oppose it. He's effectively propping up the government. Three line whips supporting government Brexit policy back this assertion up.

If the Labour Party actually opposed the idiocy of Brexit and went around the country campaigning on that basis instead of holding rallies based around the Cult of Corbyn (possible typo) then the country might not be complacently and resigningly limping into the Brexit oblivion we appear to be at present.

Currently Labour isn’t doing anything different, it’s just another election victory focussed machine, same as it’s been for decades. It’s all about winning elections and that’s it, nothing else. They have a few more left wing policies compared to the past, sure, but they're allowing the leadership to dictate a policy that the vast majority of the party disagree with, just because they think the numbers stack that way. Yet more disingenuous political bollocks.

Same as it’s ever been

[blandy]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

If the Labour Party actually opposed the idiocy of Brexit and went around the country campaigning on that basis instead of holding rallies based around the Cult of Corbyn (possible typo) then the country might not be complacently and resigningly limping into the Brexit oblivion we appear to be at present.

You’re right, of course. But I think it’s more cowardly still. I mean even if we ignore the fact that most Labour MPs and most labour members believe remaining in the EU is by far the most sane option and so that’s what labour should be fighting for. So I f we allow for Corbyn’s view that the EU would stop his kind of socialist dream for Britain from coming true and so as leader he can decide what labour wants and stands for and what it’s policy is, then we should be hearing him explain that policy (whatever it is). But that’s not happened either. Labours policy is essentially exactly the same as the government policy, but with a different meaningless slogan to hide the inherent nonsensical, harmful and contradictory content.

Labour’s version of the future via their version of Brexit will lead to exactly the same clusterpork as under the tories. Fewer jobs, hobbled NHS, companies shifting abroad, lower investment, reduced freedom of seamless travel and movement for Brits, reduced international influence, higher taxes, worse economy and all the rest of it. 

As you said earlier, Brexit is the single biggest ( by an absolute mile ) issue and factor on the future of the country and Labour’s leader and the Tory leader are both on the same side on it, both utter fools and cowards. Labour / Tory same outcome, same results, just different slogans. “Would sir prefer the red, white and blue shafting, or the jobs first shafting?”

[markavfc40]

It is almost certainly the case that most Labour MP's want to remain in the EU.  I also think you could add in enough Tory MP's to ensure that combined they would comfortably form a majority of MP's that believe remaining in the EU would be best for the country. The reason they don't come together to make that happen is that we held a referendum and we unfortunately voted to leave the EU.

This whole thing is a mess. Labour voted for a leader that has always wanted out of the EU. It is for totally different reasons to those on the far right of the Tory party but the facts are we have the anti EU mob steering the Tory party and we have an anti EU leader of the Labour party and the bottom line is that in the referendum we voted to leave the EU. I don't like it but that is where we are.

If the tide has now changed and as a country more of us want to remain in the EU then I guess we should see a huge resurgence in the Lib Dems.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

If the tide has now changed and as a country more of us want to remain in the EU then I guess we should see a huge resurgence in the Lib Dems.

Except most people wouldn't trust them to look after a log of wood for ten minutes

[bickster]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

Labour voted for a leader that has always wanted out of the EU.

Before any sane rational person thought that leaving the EU was ever going to happen

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

...and the bottom line is that in the referendum we voted to leave the EU. I don't like it but that is where we are.

And this bit is the most shocking, you yourself say you're a remainer. This "but the country voted to leave in a referendum" nonsense has become the mantra to keep people from fighting back. The polls have been in favour of remain for over a year, consistently. The referendum was fought by two factions of the Tory Party, one side lied through their back teeth, talked bollocks and promised the earth at every waking breath, The Russian Trolls were also active in the campaign, along with that there Cambridge Analytica. No one really knew whet they were voting for.

Even Corbyn's campaigning to remain was reminiscent of the 80's SWP mantra of Vote Labour with No Allusions. He might as well have gone round the country shouting Vote Remain because the EU is Shit. And don't get me started on the 7/10 comment, I nearly needed a new telly that Sunday morning, I'm no politician and I could have sidestepped that one, it was a deliberate piece of vandalism.

At least at the end of this current process there should be a referendum again when we actually know what is and isn't on the table, that is only right and proper, you know another vote when its all become painfully clear what is going to happen.

Get angry, do something about it. The process was flawed and shambolic, don't just come out with "unfortunately we voted to leave". That resignation is exactly what the likes of Farage, Boris, Gove et al want you to think and you've taken the bait hook line and sinker. Its happened, we might as well get on with it... and Corbyn's position just helps that process along.

 

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, bickster said:

Alright I’ll explain it to you. At no point did I say Owen Smith was more in touch with the Labour Party on a wide range of issues, which is what a leadership election is fought on. I said however that Corbyn is out of touch with the vast majority of opinions both within the parliamentary party and the wider membership on Brexit, you won’t find a single poll that disputes that anywhere. And despite what Corbyn might say, Brexit is the biggest single issue in the country by far

This is where our disagreement is. You said he should resign because his opinion on Brexit is so far from the middle of the party, and I absolutely agree that his opinion is very different to the vast majority of Labour voters (I believe 80% wanted to remain in the single market when asked in January). But you're not engaging in the next step of the thought process, which is - if he's so far from the party membership, why did they vote for him with a thumping majority after the EU referendum? Why did the membership subsequently grow to its largest level in decades? Why did they outperform all expectations in a general election, after a campaign in which they tried to mention Brexit as little as possible?

The answer I'm proposing to this seeming conundrum is that contrary to your assertion, Brexit is not 'the biggest single issue in the country by far'. I strongly suspect - I can't find polling evidence which directly tests the proposition, but it fits the facts laid out above - that if you asked Labour members to compare Brexit with pay freezes, or Brexit with crumbling public services, or Brexit with 'austerity' more broadly, you would find the membership care more about the latter (and rightly, because the financial impact from austerity is much greater). 

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

This "but the country voted to leave in a referendum" nonsense has become the mantra to keep people from fighting back. The polls have been in favour of remain for over a year, consistently.

You've said this before, but the evidence is pretty thin on the ground. This Guardian/ICM poll found 51% Remain, 49% Leave which is not really any different to the sort of numbers Remain were polling before the referendum they lost, and gives the summary 'the poll reflects earlier research that shows sentiment is shifting toward remain, but not by much'. A 51-49 split is not a particularly meaningful shift from 48-52 (it's well within the margin of error). 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

 if he's so far from the party membership, why did they vote for him with a thumping majority after the EU referendum?

Not true at all

Corbyn elected leader on September 12th 2015

EU referendum June 23rd 2016

[HanoiVillan]

Just now, bickster said:

Not true at all

Corbyn elected leader on September 12th 2015

EU referendum June 23rd 2016

I'm talking about the Corbyn vs Smith leadership election, obviously. 

[markavfc40]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

Get angry, do something about it. 

I agree with much of what you say in your post mate. What do you suggest I do about it though and what are you doing? The two main parties say we are leaving the EU, we have the Lib Dems who openly want another referendum and want to remain but as you said previously they have zero credibility.

We are a country full of people that are all fart and no shit that will preach on social media but do f all and that is what will happen here. 

 

[bickster]

Probably because Owen Smith isn't exactly going to set the world alight and he was the back to Blair candidate that no-one wanted either

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I agree with much of what you say in your post mate. What do you suggest I do about it though and what are you doing? The two main parties say we are leaving the EU, we have the Lib Dems who openly want another referendum and want to remain but as you said previously they have zero credibility.

We are a country full of people that are all fart and no shit that will preach on social media but do f all and that is what will happen here. 

 

Well I'm certainly not going around resigned to the fact its going to happen. And even if it does, I'll still be saying it was wrong. Hell who knows if there is a second referendum (Lets see what the loathesome Chuka comes up with for starters) I might even get off my arse and campaign

[markavfc40]

The one thing that could have potentially changed the direction is a general election and I honestly thought there would be one this year as I couldn't see May surviving. Even if there was one though then you would have both the Tories and Labour campaigning with the intention of leaving the EU despite the majority of MP's in both parties believing we would be better off staying in the EU. The whole thing is farcical really.

Edited March 24, 2018 by markavfc40

[dAVe80]

At my CLP meeting today, my normally 'Corbyn Sceptic' MP alluded to the fact that Owen Smith should have been sacked weeks ago. This is someone who publicly backed him in the leadership election, is a member (or was a member) of Progress, and claims that he's a friend of hers. Aside from rights or wrongs of Brexit, his sacking is based on him being a shadow minster, disobeying the whip, and going against official party policy of not having a second referendum. My MP actually works with Keir Starmer, and told us that Smith had contradicted the work the shadow Brexit team have been doing. It seems that there was little option, other than to sack him.   

Edited March 24, 2018 by dAVe80