The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[dAVe80]

Wonderful and moving speech / motion, from Fire Brigade Union General Secretary, Matt Wrack, regarding Grenfell at conference. 

[Seat68]

Labour faces new anti semitism row.

 

Quote

Labour faced a fresh anti-Semitism row last night after a speaker at a party conference fringe event called for free speech to extend to holocaust denial.

At the same meeting, activists cheered as a speaker called for Jewish and pro-Israel groups to be expelled from the party.

This fringe event had an Israeli american author invited that called for discussion of the holocaust, yes or no. It seems this wasn't anything to do with the main conference and activists were quite vocal in their condemnation.

 Interesting organisation "Free speech on Israel" they seem like a group that are made up mainly of Jews that are anti Israel, the speaker Miko Peled also seems interesting without digging too deep, he appears to allowed his own personal bitterness, rightfully bitter, to taint his views a little, particularly with this topic. That said I am only reading the speech title and not the body.  I mentioned this to a colleague and rightfully, he fell off his chair.

[bickster]

A prime example of the Pro-Israeli lobby having far too much influence

They've got poor Tom Watson coming across as a blubbering mess trying to say Labour will Investigate this whilst at the same time saying the Fringe is nothing to do with Labour and all because someone said:

  “This is about free speech, the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no, Palestine, the liberation, the whole spectrum. There should be no limits on the discussion.”

Watson also said Peled should be expelled from the Party if he’s a member, which he isn’t.

Yet another example of Labour being accused of being anti-Semitic that isn’t true and yet another example of the Labour leadership pooing its pants and getting their response totally wrong

[Seat68]

Couldn't agree more.

[darrenm]

21 minutes ago, bickster said:

A prime example of the Pro-Israeli lobby having far too much influence

Theyve for poor Tom Watson coming across as a blubbering mess trying to say Labour will Investigate this whilst at the same time saying the Fringe is nothing to do with Labour and all because someone said:

  “This is about free speech, the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no, Palestine, the liberation, the whole spectrum. There should be no limits on the discussion.”

Watson also said Peled should be expelled from the Party, if he’s a member, which  he isn’t.

Yet another example of Labour being accused of being anti Semitic that isn’t true and yet another example of the Labour leadership pooing it’s pants and getting their response totally wrong

It's not just the leadership. The MPs who aren't quite as onboard with Jezza and Momentum are either capitalising on a shitstorm over nothing or just being really naive.

 

[tonyh29]

15 hours ago, dAVe80 said:

Wonderful and moving speech / motion, from Fire Brigade Union General Secretary, Matt Wrack, regarding Grenfell at conference. 

Needless to say I didn't see it  , and maybe as a result I'm going to look a prize plonker ( again  )

 but I dunno I'd be cautious about demanding Grenfell brings down a government as Wrack did  ,The building was inspected at least 16 times by Kensington and Chelsea council over two years while the £10m refurbishment project was under way but the checks failed to spot that the building was clad in material effectively banned by the government.. now maybe the Govt are responsible for the council , maybe austerity is to blame , maybe the 2005 regulatory reform that shifted the responsibility for fire inspection from the fire brigade to the local council is to blame , maybe a little of each (and more)

I know momentum (of which Wrack is a member ?) have their slogan to bring down the Tory government by any means necessarily I'm not sure politicising death is the right way personally  ...

 

out of interest . do you think this would this have been the topic for fringe had it been Labour controlled Camden where the fire broke out rather than Tory controlled Ken & Chelsea  ..not deflecting away from the dreadful event , just the motive , you could apply the rule of blandy and say it's the oppositions job to hold the government to account...however ,  Corbyn linked Grenfell to Hillsborough and child sex abuse and tried to make it an example of working class voices being ignored and I think he's wider of the mark on that than a Heskey header here

 

 

[dAVe80]

15 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Needless to say I didn't see it  , and maybe as a result I'm going to look a prize plonker ( again  )

 but I dunno I'd be cautious about demanding Grenfell brings down a government as Wrack did  ,The building was inspected at least 16 times by Kensington and Chelsea council over two years while the £10m refurbishment project was under way but the checks failed to spot that the building was clad in material effectively banned by the government.. now maybe the Govt are responsible for the council , maybe austerity is to blame , maybe the 2005 regulatory reform that shifted the responsibility for fire inspection from the fire brigade to the local council is to blame , maybe a little of each (and more)

I know momentum (of which Wrack is a member ?) have their slogan to bring down the Tory government by any means necessarily I'm not sure politicising death is the right way personally  ...

 

out of interest . do you think this would this have been the topic for fringe had it been Labour controlled Camden where the fire broke out rather than Tory controlled Ken & Chelsea  ..not deflecting away from the dreadful event , just the motive , you could apply the rule of blandy and say it's the oppositions job to hold the government to account...however ,  Corbyn linked Grenfell to Hillsborough and child sex abuse and tried to make it an example of working class voices being ignored and I think he's wider of the mark on that than a Heskey header here

 

 

On the last point, I'd have to disagree, and would say Corbyn is pretty much on the money, but that's just my opinion of course.

You raise some interesting points, and I'm not sure I have an answer as to if things would have been different with a Labour run council. It's a hypothetical, so I'd not want to say either way. I do know that Labour councils are not beyond criticism from the membership. Although not on the same scale as Grenfell, I know that local Labour groups are very critical of Birmingham City Council, and their handling of the binmen. I know from personal experience, that Labour groups in the North East are very upset with Durham County Council over their treatment of Teaching Assistants. Both are Labour led councils.

[Chindie]

From what I understand the bin strike is a difficult situation that the council managed to make worse. The council pretty much can't afford the deal the bin men want and also it may open the door to more equal pay disputes. So how the council sorts that I've no idea. Especially as the bin men also know they have a strong hand - people get pissed off when there's rubbish everywhere and trying to mitigate costs even more.

But then they somehow managed to exacerbate it by agreeing a deal they couldn't do and then saying they didn't agree it, and acting incredibly shifty throughout.

The problem isn't the councils creation but they made it far worse. I'm not sure any party would come out smelling of roses though.

[blandy]

3 hours ago, Labour said:

the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no

The problem with this is the holocaust denial - a discussion as to whether it happened? it happened. It's fact. It's unwise beyond belief to host or hold a discussion/debate as to whether it happened, because one side of that argument is holocaust denial.

Ken Loach was making the same loopy argument on the telly, earlier along the lines of "no, there's no anti-semitism ...we should be allowed to discuss whether the holocaust actually happened"

Get a grip you tools.

[dAVe80]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

The problem with this is the holocaust denial - a discussion as to whether it happened? it happened. It's fact. It's unwise beyond belief to host or hold a discussion/debate as to whether it happened, because one side of that argument is holocaust denial.

Ken Loach was making the same loopy argument on the telly, earlier along the lines of "no, there's no anti-semitism ...we should be allowed to discuss whether the holocaust actually happened"

Get a grip you tools.

I think it may be a different debate, and going off topic, but the whole, "cus freedom of speech" thing makes me very uneasy. Freedom of speech doesn't give people the right to say ridiculous things, and not get pulled up for it. It seems to be a get out of jail free card for some people.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Corbyn linked Grenfell to Hillsborough and child sex abuse and tried to make it an example of working class voices being ignored and I think he's wider of the mark on that than a Heskey header

I think he's got a very good point. We know Hillsborough was a massive cover up, we know that the families had to battle and battle to get the truth out there. We know similar problems have gone on with authorities not listening to people raising the alarm about child abuse, about predators. We know that the residents of the tower repeatedly warned and expressed concnern that there was a huge fire safety problem.

All of them were ignored.

Whether Corbyn has completely nailed the cause, the institutional self importance, the broken link between authorities and the people they've supposed to serve, I dunno. But he's got a point. SO much of the "system" works against, not for people.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, dAVe80 said:

Freedom of speech doesn't give people the right to say ridiculous things, and not get pulled up for it. It seems to be a get out of jail free card for some people

Exactly. Do you not see that's what Stella Creasy and others are actually pointing out. A number of the Labour, and Corynite er,  followers, are seemingly oblivious to their being on the wrong side of your argument, there.

[dAVe80]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Exactly. Do you not see that's what Stella Creasy and others are actually pointing out. A number of the Labour, and Corynite er,  followers, are seemingly oblivious to their being on the wrong side of your argument, there.

I tend to agree with the whole Israel debate (by which I mean you can be against the occupation of Palestine, without being anti-Semitic), but fail to see why anyone would lump in Holocaust denial into that argument. Although I also fail to see how anyone could be a Holocaust denier full stop.  

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

The problem with this is the holocaust denial - a discussion as to whether it happened? it happened. It's fact. It's unwise beyond belief to host or hold a discussion/debate as to whether it happened, because one side of that argument is holocaust denial.

Ken Loach was making the same loopy argument on the telly, earlier along the lines of "no, there's no anti-semitism ...we should be allowed to discuss whether the holocaust actually happened"

Get a grip you tools.

Ken Loach didn't say that though. Read or watch what he actually said. He was just trying to avoid being caught out on anything.

As for the text about the freedom to discuss whether the holocaust actually happened - that's a ridiculous thing to say. I'd be interested to see who said that.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Exactly. Do you not see that's what Stella Creasy and others are actually pointing out. A number of the Labour, and Corynite er,  followers, are seemingly oblivious to their being on the wrong side of your argument, there.

No, that's not what Stella Creasy was doing. I like her but I think she was naively furthering a false narrative there.

[magnkarl]

18 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Ken Loach didn't say that though. Read or watch what he actually said. He was just trying to avoid being caught out on anything.

As for the text about the freedom to discuss whether the holocaust actually happened - that's a ridiculous thing to say. I'd be interested to see who said that.

Miko Peled said it in the most politically correct way he could. He said. 

Quote

“This is about free speech, the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no, Palestine, the liberation, the whole spectrum,” Mr Peled is reported to have said."

What on earth does holocaust: yes or no have to do with free speech? It's lumped in with other tin foil arguments like chem trails, aliens and other idiotic things. He's skirting the issue but letting a very anti-israel audience know that he's open to discussing whether the biggest mass murder in human history happened. Are you even wondering why people are up in arms about it? It's lax behavior like the above that has let idiots like Ken Livingstone repeatedly spout crap. What on earth does Palestine have to do with the holocaust?

If there was a right wing speaker holding an event attached to the conservative conference where he discussed whether or not the slave trade happened in front of around 100 hard core conservative voters - would you be upset?

Edited September 27, 2017 by magnkarl

[Chindie]

If you're to advocate free speech, you're to advocate people saying really stupid and offensive things. Including Holocaust denial.

Obviously the Holocaust occurred and there's millions of people with lives curtailed to show it, many Jews and many others as well. It's completely brain dead to debate otherwise.

But free speech is to let that debate be had. And to let the consequences roll from there.

[darrenm]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

If you're to advocate free speech, you're to advocate people saying really stupid and offensive things. Including Holocaust denial.

Obviously the Holocaust occurred and there's millions of people with lives curtailed to show it, many Jews and many others as well. It's completely brain dead to debate otherwise.

But free speech is to let that debate be had. And to let the consequences roll from there.

I advocate free speech and I advocate people saying stupid and offensive things being told so.

[PompeyVillan]

"Labour on the threshold of power" says Corbyn. 

I'm not sure about that.

[magnkarl]

11 minutes ago, Chindie said:

If you're to advocate free speech, you're to advocate people saying really stupid and offensive things. Including Holocaust denial.

Obviously the Holocaust occurred and there's millions of people with lives curtailed to show it, many Jews and many others as well. It's completely brain dead to debate otherwise.

But free speech is to let that debate be had. And to let the consequences roll from there.

I agree to that. Sadly the UK doesn't have proper free speech, but rather a negative right form of freedom of expression. 

It's a common tool for Holocaust deniers to claim to only want to 'question' the Holocaust because they know the outright argument won't fly. The nazis were extreme record keepers due to Hitler's extreme micromanagement style. There's whole libraries with books filled with names of exterminated people and lists of items stolen and confiscated from Jews and other peoples around Europe.

People who use terms such as 'questioning' and 'free speech' as if saying horrible things is prohibited are purposely trying to confuse inquiry with denial. You could show them a letter signed by Adolf saying it happened and they'd still doubt it.

Edited September 27, 2017 by magnkarl