The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

1 minute ago, PompeyVillan said:

"Labour on the threshold of power" says Corbyn. 

I'm not sure about that.

I don't think it's that daft. 

Brexit will be hugely damaging to the Tories.

They can't stop tearing themselves apart over the leadership.

It won't take much to force a GE from that.

Labour would get a majority with current polling trends and the damage from the above.

 

[snowychap]

25 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Miko Peled said it in the most politically correct way he could. He said. 

What on earth does holocaust: yes or no have to do with free speech? It's lumped in with other tin foil arguments like chem trails, aliens and other idiotic things. He's skirting the issue but letting a very anti-israel audience know that he's open to discussing whether the biggest mass murder in human history happened. Are you even wondering why people are up in arms about it? It's lax behavior like the above that has let idiots like Ken Livingstone repeatedly spout crap. What on earth does Palestine have to do with the holocaust?

If there was a right wing speaker holding an event attached to the conservative conference where he discussed whether or not the slave trade happened in front of around 100 hard core conservative voters - would you be upset?

Are you claiming that Miko Peled is a Holocaust denier?

[magnkarl]

15 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Are you claiming that Miko Peled is a Holocaust denier?

I don't know Miko Peled other than the fact that he joined the special forces in Israel and left the country shortly after. I'm saying that what he said was pandering to an audience full of people who hate Israel so much that they can't differentiate between racism and policy. What Miko Peled thinks about holocaust is for himself to decide - though he has an old style middle eastern Jewish name so I presume none of his family were affected by the Holocaust.

Generally most of the ardent 'critics' of Holocaust who are Jewish are from families who were based in then British Palestine before the war and had very little experience with what actually happened. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by magnkarl

[snowychap]

21 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I'm saying that what he said was pandering to an audience full of people who hate Israel so much that they can't differentiate between racism and policy.

Were you in the room?

21 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Generally most of the ardent 'critics' of Holocaust who are Jewish are from families who were based in then British Palestine before the war and had very little experience with what actually happened.

Is he a 'critic' of the Holocaust? 

Edited September 27, 2017 by snowychap

[snowychap]

45 minutes ago, Chindie said:

If you're to advocate free speech, you're to advocate people saying really stupid and offensive things. Including Holocaust denial.

Obviously the Holocaust occurred and there's millions of people with lives curtailed to show it, many Jews and many others as well. It's completely brain dead to debate otherwise.

But free speech is to let that debate be had. And to let the consequences roll from there.

It would seem, though, from what else he said and from what he wrote to the Grauniad that he isn't actually in favour of free speech:

The Grauniad

Quote

In an email to the Guardian, Peled pointed out that he himself was Jewish, but was not a member of the Labour party. He said: “The Holocaust was a terrible crime that we must study and from which we must all learn. I reject the idea that Holocaust deniers, foolish as they may be, should be treated as criminals and I doubt that supporters of Israel should be given the authority to judge who is or is not a racist and antisemite.

“Promoters of racist ideologies should not be given a public platform, and to me that does include people who promote Zionism – which is a racist ideology whose followers have committed and continue to commit crimes against the people of Palestine.

“If we are to do justice to the memory of the millions of victims of the Holocaust, Jewish and Roma and many, many others, then we must engage in robust debate and education about the causes of current, ongoing violence and injustice.”

 

[blandy]

3 hours ago, darrenm said:

No, that's not what Stella Creasy was doing. I like her but I think she was naively furthering a false narrative there.

It's exactly what she was doing. Journo reports that Emily Thornberry [a Corbyn chum ]said "it is completely inappropriate for those on the fringes of the Labour Party to stifle debate" on anti-Semitism.

And Stella Creasy agreed  "Never have I been more aware of the work we need to do within labour to truly be a party of equality than today"

You can't be a party of equality whilst stifling debate on anti semitism and allowing debate around/about the circs of the holocaust or whether it happened.

Telling Labour MPs who have witnessed or been subjected to anti-semetic abuse that they haven't, or that "no, it's people out to get Corbyn making it all up" is not the fix for the problem.

 

[darrenm]

7 hours ago, blandy said:

It's exactly what she was doing. Journo reports that Emily Thornberry [a Corbyn chum ]said "it is completely inappropriate for those on the fringes of the Labour Party to stifle debate" on anti-Semitism.

And Stella Creasy agreed  "Never have I been more aware of the work we need to do within labour to truly be a party of equality than today"

You can't be a party of equality whilst stifling debate on anti semitism and allowing debate around/about the circs of the holocaust or whether it happened.

Telling Labour MPs who have witnessed or been subjected to anti-semetic abuse that they haven't, or that "no, it's people out to get Corbyn making it all up" is not the fix for the problem.

 

What problem?

[blandy]

8 hours ago, darrenm said:

What problem?

Q.E.D.

[darrenm]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

Q.E.D.

Great retort, but would you like to actually state what problem you say ignoring won't fix?

[Xann]

See what this Jewish lady at the Labour conference thought...

Telegraph via Jews Sans Frontieres

[blandy]

2 hours ago, darrenm said:

Great retort, but would you like to actually state what problem you say ignoring won't fix?

The one this thread's mentioned multiple times over the last pages. The one that led to Ken Livingstone being suspended (but not kicked out), the one alluded to by Emily Thornbury, Stella Creasy, the one dismissed as mood music by Len effing McLuskey and as people making stuff up by Ken piggin' Loach, but the one that Labour's disciplinary bods say is "redolent of the 1930s"

Quote

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel.

John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

He was speaking at a fringe debate at the Labour conference in Brighton.

Labour says it condemns anti-Semitism in the "strongest possible terms" with "tough new rules" recently agreed by the party's ruling executive committee.

These changes to the rule book will be voted on by delegates in Brighton on Tuesday.

The fringe debate, organised by the Holocaust Educational Trust and the Anti-Semitism Policy Trust, looked at anti-Semitism on the left of politics.

Panellists agreed there had been a recent increase in people questioning the Holocaust.

Mr Cryer, Labour MP for Leyton and Wanstead, described a "seeping poison" and warned that future generations might not realise that when it came to Nazism, "we were right and they were wrong".

As chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party, he sits on the disputes panel of the National Executive Committee, which rules on what members have "said, written or tweeted", he told the audience.

"I have seen some of the tweets from paid up Labour Party members and I am not kidding you, it makes your hair stand up," he said.

Some Labour members dismiss reports of anti-Semitism as a myth, he said.

"But you don't have to look very far before you see it's not a myth...and there's no place in the Labour Party for stuff like that."

Another MP, Wes Streeting, said a "rump" of anti-Semites in Labour should be "driven out" of the party....

But then, you knew all that already.

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

The one this thread's mentioned multiple times over the last pages. The one that led to Ken Livingstone being suspended (but not kicked out), the one alluded to by Emily Thornbury, Stella Creasy, the one dismissed as mood music by Len effing McLuskey and as people making stuff up by Ken piggin' Loach, but the one that Labour's disciplinary bods say is "redolent of the 1930s"

But then, you knew all that already.

Right, just so we're clear. You're saying that the Labour party has more of a problem with antisemitism than any other club, party, institution, group, etc in the UK? You're saying it's a problem unique, or more unique to Labour?

[blandy]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

Right, just so we're clear. You're saying that the Labour party has more of a problem with antisemitism than any other club, party, institution, group, etc in the UK? You're saying it's a problem unique, or more unique to Labour?

Labour has a problem with anti-semitism.  That much is clear. They also have a problem with some members denying there's a problem. They won't fix it until they properly acknowledge it.

That from a jewish labour delegate a couple of days ago at the conference

They recently hardened their rules to try and reduce it. It hasn't gone away. I don't think it will. It's ingrained in people like Livingstone and clearly a small but significant element.

[darrenm]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Labour has a problem with anti-semitism.  That much is clear. They also have a problem with some members denying there's a problem. They won't fix it until they properly acknowledge it.

https://twitter.com/izzyjengalenga/status/912631829244588033

https://twitter.com/izzyjengalenga/status/912634803912167424

That from a jewish labour delegate a couple of days ago at the conference

They recently hardened their rules to try and reduce it. It hasn't gone away. I don't think it will. It's ingrained in people like Livingstone and clearly a small but significant element.

That didn't answer my question

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

Right, just so we're clear. You're saying that the Labour party has more of a problem with antisemitism than any other club, party, institution, group, etc in the UK? You're saying it's a problem unique, or more unique to Labour?

I expect better from you Darren. This is what you accuse the Tories of doing all the time. Quick, look away! It's not specific to Labour so let's not deal with it. The others do it too so it's totally fine!

It doesn't matter which party has the problem, what matters is that all of them deal with bigotry and idiotic statements that would not fly were they used against black people, muslims and other minorities. This chat is on Labour - not other parties. Labour had several instances over the last few days that have resurfaced the problem yet again. The retort for being a racist is that it's the "zionists" fault. Heard it before?

Elements of labour have some pretty awful stuff engrained in them because of the whole two state saga in Israel. Calling Jewish Labour members saboteurs and bringing in the holocaust in a debate on free speech is low. Ken Livingstone and his ilk has been allowed to exist in your party for too long, no one wants to admit it. He'd be beaten up by Labour groups in the 50's, now he's defended until people's faces go red.

Edited September 28, 2017 by magnkarl

[PompeyVillan]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I expect better from you Darren. This is what you accuse the Tories of doing all the time. Quick, look away! It's not specific to Labour so let's not deal with it. The others do it too so it's totally fine!

It doesn't matter which party has the problem, what matters is that all of them deal with bigotry and idiotic statements that would not fly were they used against black people, muslims and other minorities. 

It's not whataboutism, it's about putting an issue in context. 

And in context, there isn't a huge mainstream problem with anti-semitism in the Labour party. 

That's not denying that it exists, nor saying it's acceptable, it's contextualising it as an issue with a minority. 

It does seem to me that there is more scrutiny put on the Labour party because they've not been great at convincing people that they're dealing with the issue.

[magnkarl]

Here's a good example of what Labour's problem is. As long as this idiot is part of Labour he's making it okay for fringe groups to behave like they do over and over. Ken starts by claiming that only half a percent of Jews in the UK are Jewish. Maybe he should start his own party, keep the socialist and add in the nationalist.

To Ken all Jewish people are Israeli and hence have blame for what Israel's elected government does. I'm sure he has #ForTheManyNotTheJew tattooed on his back.

Edited September 28, 2017 by magnkarl

[blandy]

3 hours ago, Xann said:

See what this Jewish lady at the Labour conference thought...

Telegraph via Jews Sans Frontieres

Here's 4 things that are all the case, all at the same time.

1. Criticising the Israeli Gov't and it's actions isn't ant-semitism.

2. Pro_israeli gov't  individuals, lobbyists, websites etc. sometimes (frequently) call criticism of the Israel Gov't "anti-semtic" when it is no such thing.

3. There are too many people who exhibit genuine anti-semitic behaviour and do anti-semetic abuse etc. in the Labour party. 

4. There are too many leading people in Labour who give the strong impression of  denying or diverting from point 3 by claiming the victims and observers of the bad behaviour are "out to get Jezza" or are making it up or similar.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, PompeyVillan said:

It's not whataboutism, it's about putting an issue in context. 

And in context, there isn't a huge mainstream problem with anti-semitism in the Labour party. 

That's not denying that it exists, nor saying it's acceptable, it's contextualising it as an issue with a minority. 

It does seem to me that there is more scrutiny put on the Labour party because they've not been great at convincing people that they're dealing with the issue.

It seems like whataboutism to me.

There isn't a huge problem, but there is a persistent problem that is not insignificant.

Your contextualising it is fine and reasonable. Would that prominent Corbyn followers only do the same, instead of denying it exists, calling it mood music, or attempts to get at Corbyn, or even Jezza's own response at times.

It's not as bad, as UKIP with racism and islamophobia, say but it's there. And it kind of matters not only because the people who are subjected to it shouldn't be, but also because it's a persistent achilles heel and blind spot for the man who might be the next PM and for his followers.

It's so easy, perhaps for opponents of Israel's policies to slip into anti-semetism, or for opponents of the U.S. policy to slip into being abusive of all Americans...etc.. It sometimes doesn't happen conciously, perhaps but  before long previously reasonable, thinking, fair minded people are spouting drivel and abuse about  Jews / Americans / Muslims / Bankers / Socialists / Tories....whoever. - it's like the worst parts of the internet culture but in real life as well.

[magnkarl]

35 minutes ago, blandy said:

It seems like whataboutism to me.

There isn't a huge problem, but there is a persistent problem that is not insignificant.

It's a roughly 100,000 vote problem if Labour wants to put it into numbers. Most of those votes in seats that are closely contested in London.

Edited September 28, 2017 by magnkarl