tonyh29 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Tbf I don't think they've fallen apart on this .... yet as Mark says both parties are going to be in for interesting times on Europe 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 1 hour ago, PompeyVillan said: Looks like some Labour MPs can't help themselves but rebel against Corbyn. 4 more front benchers gone. Jesus wept. Just back the man for goodness sake, give him a chance. He's earned it. I'm all for a coalition of views within the party but there needs to be unity. I don't think it's that bad and it gives them a chance to show they can be united even when they disagree. I'm not a big fan of Chuka but fair play to him for tabling/voting for what he believed in. Corbyn was 'King of the Rebels'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Cobyns time is limited anyway, Unless there's an election soon he'll be in his 70's, he said himself no one should work after they are 68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 3 hours ago, PompeyVillan said: Looks like some Labour MPs can't help themselves but rebel against Corbyn. 4 more front benchers gone. Jesus wept. Just back the man for goodness sake, give him a chance. He's earned it. I'm all for a coalition of views within the party but there needs to be unity. Yeah, come on Labour MPs. Agreeing with everything the party leader says is the most important thing, not your principles or the well-being of the country. Just smile along like the good little nodding dogs that you should be and don't even try to do anything about the bell-ends who are trying to scuttle the economy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 23 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Yeah, come on Labour MPs. Agreeing with everything the party leader says is the most important thing, not your principles or the well-being of the country. Just smile along like the good little nodding dogs that you should be and don't even try to do anything about the bell-ends who are trying to scuttle the economy. More not going against the manifesto commitments they'd just been elected on, i.e. Leave the single market & customs union. They can't do that and remain on the front bench, even if you think Labour voters were bell-ends for endorsing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2017 11 minutes ago, Awol said: More not going against the manifesto commitments they'd just been elected on, i.e. Leave the single market & customs union. They can't do that and remain on the front bench, even if you think Labour voters were bell-ends for endorsing it. This is obviously true, and I'm pretty sure there will be quite a few in the 51 rebels who don't thank Umunna at all for putting them in this position. As for Umunna, he continues to defeat even my very low expectations. Here he was in September last year: Chuka Umunna: We Should Be Prepared To Sacrifice Single Market Membership To Axe Freedom Of Movement To be fair, his quotes were slightly more nuanced than that title: 'If continuation of the free movement we have is the price of Single Market membership then clearly we couldn’t remain in the Single Market, but we are not at that point yet . . . Anyone who spent a lot of time talking to people in the EU referendum, particularly in a constituency like mine, cannot fail to appreciate how strongly people feel about freedom of movement and why, whatever the economic advantages and disadvantages of leaving the Single Market, they are frankly not willing to even engage in that conversation unless there is a recognition of their concerns about that . . . But I have always been totally consistent in saying that Britain must be a member of the Single Market, on which thousands of jobs and rules protecting workers’ rights rely. At the same time, we need an alternative to free movement as we know it. The government should aim for both in its EU negotiations.' So, Britain 'must' be a member, but not at the cost of keeping freedom of movement, which we know actually is a condition. But today, it's all 'let's have a symbolic vote in favour of the Single Market', which could never possibly pass because no Tory Remainers could join without making a no-confidence vote in the government. The very strong suspicion has to be that he has done this to inconvenience Corbyn and for no other reason. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Awol said: More not going against the manifesto commitments they'd just been elected on, i.e. Leave the single market & customs union. They can't do that and remain on the front bench... You'll have to point out where I said they should remain on the front bench. I'd rather MPs voted for what they believe in (whatever that might be) rather than what they have been instructed to vote for. Still, if your preference is that every MP doesn't bother with troublesome things like "principles" and "opinions" and just votes with their party in every single matter to make sure their ministerial prospects aren't jeopardised, then that sounds like a fun way to do things too. Kind of defeats the point of having votes on anything in the first place mind. Edited June 30, 2017 by ml1dch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, ml1dch said: You'll have to point out where I said they should remain on the front bench. I'd rather MPs voted for what they believe in (whatever that might be) rather than what they have been instructed to vote for. Still, if your preference is that every MP doesn't bother with troublesome things like "principles" and "opinions" and just votes with their party in every single matter to make sure their ministerial prospects aren't jeopardised, then that sounds like a fun way to do things too. Kind of defeats the point of having votes on anything in the first place mind. I know what you mean but if that were the case then i dont think anything would be agreed on. It would just cause in party fighting thats been happening for corbyn since he was first elected. After labours good election result you would think maybe they would swallow their bride abit and back their leader who has done far better than the last two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 30, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 30, 2017 11 hours ago, PompeyVillan said: Looks like some Labour MPs can't help themselves but rebel against Corbyn. 4 more front benchers gone. Jesus wept. Just back the man for goodness sake, give him a chance. He's earned it. I'm all for a coalition of views within the party but there needs to be unity. Applying that logic, all the tories who voted not to remove the cap on nurses pay did the right thing, you know support the leader, go with what was in the manifesto... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Applying that logic, all the tories who voted not to remove the cap on nurses pay did the right thing, you know support the leader, go with what was in the manifesto... Yep and i think some of them were against this but backed their leader as would make the party look weaker. Conservatives are really foolish they should have had this in their manifesto. Something like increase the cap to 2% for the next 5 years. But mays pathetic arrogance i want her gone asap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, blandy said: Applying that logic, all the tories who voted not to remove the cap on nurses pay did the right thing, you know support the leader, go with what was in the manifesto... They did, to be fair. Way too early to **** May over - they'll bide their time, make the party as united as possible and then go for the jugular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: Yep and i think some of them were against this but backed their leader as would make the party look weaker. Conservatives are really foolish they should have had this in their manifesto. Something like increase the cap to 2% for the next 5 years. But mays pathetic arrogance i want her gone asap I suspect they will increase tax or national insurance in the next budget like they tried to before the election. It's pretty obvious from them removing the tax guarantee of the last manifesto that they are going to do it. Why they didn't just say they are going to do it and give a pay rise to public sector workers God knows. You're probably right, May's arrogance thought it didn't matter as she'd walk the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I'm playing devils advocate here because we both know the Conservatives are playing politics, but technically they didn't just vote 'not to remove the cap', but to wait until the pay review is completed before making a decision. However, I think we both know how often recommendations are actually fully embraced by political parties! Quote "What I can say is that we will not make our decision on public sector pay until the pay review body has reported. We will listen to what it says, and to what people in this House have said, before making a final decision." https://hansard.digiminster.com/Commons/2017-06-28/debates/BC4CBE6F-0750-4939-A277-0745C918E944/HealthSocialCareAndSecurity#contribution-C8A5D5BC-B8C5-4DD7-8FF6-6CCB8A36650F It's important to make the distinction because any failure to now take on board the review and others opinions will make them look even weaker. Though clearly misinformation is the order of the day as watching question time I saw Nick Ferrari say mainstream media is important for journalistic integrity and then a woman puts her hand up to tell us a story she probably saw on social media that the Conservatives cheered the public sector pay defeat, when they were really cheering an amendment victory......it couldn't have been a more ignorant response and the Canary woman nodding away just shows what a mess the media is really in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: when they were really cheering an amendment victory......it couldn't have been a more ignorant response that was my assumption of it as well , but **** me they live in a world of meme's , 140 characters and 30 second soundbites , they really should have known how it was going to play out in the news and social media 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted June 30, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: saw on social media that the Conservatives cheered the public sector pay defeat, when they were really cheering an amendment victory. It doesn't actually matter, in terms of perceptions. They may have been cheering that "they won" a vote, yet the vote was to defeat a motion to remove the 1% limit on pay increases for public service peeps - nurses, firemen etc. They might have been happy their team won, but they cheered keeping payrises below inflation, making poorly paid, but vital public servants poorer. It was spectacularly insensitive, I thought, regardles of the assumed reason. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 30, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 30, 2017 Did you forget I’m a hard Brexit madman? asks Corbyn Quote JEREMY Corbyn has reminded the nation that he too is a hard Brexit fanatic, despite seeming nice and having a beard. The Labour leader has sacked three frontbenchers you have never heard of for daring to vote for an amendment suggesting Brexit should perhaps not result economic ruin. Corbyn said: “Yeah yeah, that White Stripes chant that misses out the second note and all that, but don’t start thinking I’m not in a frenzy like she is. “She wants hard Brexit so she can create a fascist dictatorship, I want it so I can build a monolithic socialist system. But we both agree you’re getting it damned hard.” Corbyn admitted that eventually he would sack everyone in the Labour Party because he is now the only politician who ‘understands what Britain truly wants and everyone else will just be getting in the way’. He added: “I’ll still make jam so that you know I’m nice. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, blandy said: It doesn't actually matter, in terms of perceptions. They may have been cheering that "they won" a vote, yet the vote was to defeat a motion to remove the 1% limit on pay increases for public service peeps - nurses, firemen etc. They might have been happy their team won, but they cheered keeping payrises below inflation, making poorly paid, but vital public servants poorer. It was spectacularly insensitive, I thought, regardles of the assumed reason. That's a little different though - the sensitivity bit - because a comment like that definitely changes/reinforces peoples opinions, well exampled by the young person who made the point in the context of mainstream media. However, the comment made was not on the insensitivity to the vote but that they cheered voting down the pay increase. That's not accurate and it reinforces a false narrative rather than fact. It should have been challenged, particularity as it was a Queens speech and some in the BBCQT room must know Conservative rebels were looming and the pay review is coming. Misappropriating fact for a political narrative s wholly divisive and both sides should be ashamed when they do it or support those who do. Corbyn and Hamas, the red button or even the bus, they were all false narratives and they continue to divide. Edited June 30, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 30, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: the comment made was not on the insensitivity to the vote but that they cheered voting down the pay increase. That's not accurate That's your opinion (and mine), but it's not a fact. Only the individuals who cheered actually know why they cheered. I wouldn't put it past some of them to have been cheering for the worse reason, frankly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, blandy said: That's your opinion (and mine), but it's not a fact. Only the individuals who cheered actually know why they cheered. I wouldn't put it past some of them to have been cheering for the worse reason, frankly. I hope you adopt the same disdain for the many existing MP's who cheered Tony Blair's Iraq war speech/vote and sit at the top of their parties tree. Edited June 30, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay hmmm, is it parties, or party's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: That's your opinion (and mine), but it's not a fact. Only the individuals who cheered actually know why they cheered. I wouldn't put it past some of them to have been cheering for the worse reason, frankly. Yes, they have to earn the right to me presuming their good motives. They certainly haven't thusfar, definitely not on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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