tonyh29 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I thought from reading this thread that Corbyn was the only genuine person in politics and that ""everyone" agreed with his policies i.e re-nationalise the railways , scrap trident , not sing the National anthem etc why , then is the party he's leading projected to be so unpopular ? or are we sticking to the media line ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 On the contrary, my interpretation of the thread is there are a few people who like his policies, but think he'll never get elected with them (who, for reference, are absolutely the people who are correct in this thread ), a few people who don't like the idea he's completely unelectable, and some Tories poking the bear 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 For me, he's principled but spineless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 He's undoubtedly principled but he's unable to compromise, which is an issue when you're trying to swerve a leviathan somewhere it doesn't necessarily want to go, and he has no authority to force it because half his 'generals' hate him. He's therefore ****. Force it and he's a dictator, do nothing and he's, well, done nothing. He's also hamstrung by a problem his Left now has. There are elements of the Left that the majority of the people in this country will vote for of you preach it loud enough - the social safety net stuff. The problem is, however, two fold. Firstly, those things aren't really as pressing as they used to be. The NHS (whilst under threat) is a Thing, etc. The Left doesn't need to fight for it anymore in the eyes of most people. And the people that most need it, the young and the elderly usually, are either unable to vote or care about other things like the way things were in the good old days. Which leads to problem two. The Left is a (generally, obviously theres many exceptions) fairly globalist movement at it's heart. It's the movement that will tell you people are divided more by class than border. It's compassionate and views humans as humans, and wants to help the world get better and help those most in need, and wants to reach out to the world to stop war and pain. This came more to the fore as the West generally got better and the problem became the world being on the precipice of destruction and everywhere else was viewed as a shithole in the 70s, Corbyns formative time. Unfortunately humans are quite selfish. A few people, even a lot of people, might agree with that way of looking at the world. I think it has more than a little merit, even if I don't agree with every facet of it. When you live a shitty part of the UK with a dead end life on the horizon, while you watch TV and see extravagance and lives you will never, ever lead, it's very easy to believe that your life, with your run down bedsit and own brand value food and crap TV and manual labour job, is shit. And while your life is shit you won't support helping anyone else (beyond a few 'Done Things' - you'll wear a poppy). So when Jeremy Corbyn gets on TV and starts harping on about the railways, when you've got on a train twice in the past decade, and peddling a line of consoliatory, compassionate to everyone politics, it's easy to not want to support him because life is obviously zero sum, and he's too busy helping everyone but you, and spouting on about a world you simply do not know, or care to know. That Left, whilst entirely laudable on paper, is done, if ever it was a Thing, until the things it fought for at home are dead. The Left basically needs to swerve back to a more domestic focus to ever win an election again, with credible solutions to fixing the problems for the common man, and it needs a better salesman than Corbyn, sadly. And even then, with the world as it is now, it has to pander to the south east as well, where the concern is less will I have a job at Christmas or be able to pay for the heating bills and more how is the pension fund doing and how much is the house worth. And it needs to pander to big business, who don't want to see money levied against them more than it already is, which I daresay would stab Corbyn in the heart if he had the opportunity to do it and couldn't. Some barely thought out ramblings. I like Corbyn, generally. I think he's genuine, has good intentions to make the world a better place. Unfortunately he's never going to do it, or get anywhere near having the chance to do it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Chindie said: He's undoubtedly principled this is the bit I struggle with to an extent .. he may be principled but those principles aren't necessarily the right principles ( terrorists for example) .. you might as well say Thatcher was principled , it's just her principles involved sponsoring South Yorkshire Police to hit miners with truncheons , but to be far to her she never waivered from that principle He spent years as a back bencher fighting the party , then became leader and sacked anyone that stood against him and split the party , and possibly killed the party in the long run , he spent years voting against Europe then told his party to vote for remain ( though to be fair he did it very half heartedly and probably helped Leaves cause) .. tbf he seems to have stood firm on trident , even if he compromised with trident subs without trident missiles so I dunno really , he seems no different to just about every other politician if you ask me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 I think calling him principled is probably the least important thing to concentrate on, and the easiest to attack. Even as I use it about him I understand it's a fairly mealy mouthed description of his character, it doesn't really mean anything. I struggle with the idea he's a hypocrit because he fought the party as a back bencher and now is fighting dissent. He fought the party because it stood against what he wanted it to be. Now in charge he's trying to swerve it away from that direction into the one he wants - he is obviously going to face dissent in that and he's got to deal with it, either tempering his plans, or fighting the dissent. When he was a back bencher he didn't matter really, now he's got a lot of people fighting against him, he can't ignore without ultimately achieving nothing. Where his principles do matter, and I almost think people calling him 'principled' use it as short hand for this, are that they are different to the standard fare in UK politics. He's not ploughing the same furrow as everyone else, he is out to set a somewhat different course to the usual standards of the UK political sphere. We've had decades where theres been barely a Rizla between the parties, and he's rocked up and wants to actually make a change. It's the student politics dream. It'll remain a dream but thats what 'principled' means to people I think. It's short hand for a different mentality imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, Chindie said: It's the student politics dream ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I was genuinely shocked to see people saying all the things I generally agree with in here. Lots of new posts and I can't really disagree with anything. Until Tony started on about the ridiculous 'friend of the terrorists' thing but I doubt he really wants to be taken seriously anyway. I've always been very supportive of Corbyn because he seems to have the same ideas as me. Green, pacifist, anti-austerity, socialist, anti-corruption, social justice. All of the things that to me seem like basic human values but to others seem wet eared and air headed. I found the constant uttering of 'unelectable' by anyone with any kind of interest in either removing the Tories from power or getting the Labour party in to be really unhelpful. It derailed any kind of momentum the new left Labour had and meant Corbyn was always up against it. Whoever in the right wing media thought of it deserves a medal. One word to stop a social movement and Labour followers didn't even realise the own goal they were scoring by proliferating it. But I completely agree with the last few posts about him being utterly stuffed by brexit. Whoever (blandy?) said it on the last page about traditional Labour voters being brexiters and Corbyn movement members being remainers is spot on, so he can't win. If I could give him advice over a pint I'd say that dithering won't help anyone and he should just choose a side and get behind it 100%. Personally I think Corbyn is more aligned with Green than Labour anyway. I'd love to see an alliance between Green and progressive Labour. Corbyn should take momentum and leave right wing Labour to cuddle up to the Tories. Green still wouldn't have any chance of getting into power but that's more a reflection of society's environmental responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 In fairness theres more to Corbyn being unelectable than just the media saying it - it's true. I like the guy, but it's obvious he's not going to be PM, and it was from the start. He knows it too. His policies don't echo with the people. Some of it does but a lot of it doesn't. Brexit probably only hurts him insofar as he's got a position he can't win in - it seemed to me he likes some elements of the EU and hates other bits and fudged it, meaning he got attacked from both sides and couldn't win. But that isn't stopping him winning an election. The referendum could never have happened and he would not win an election. He's too much of the socialist leftie. He's not as polished as Blair or Cameron and he's not a clear posh boy, so you'd hope he resonates with the people through being clearly less of an elite, but his politics does nothing for them. And as a salesman he's rubbish. And then half his party is against him and always will be. Nobody is voting for that in enough numbers to win anything. He's ****. The media saying so is just calling a spade a spade. His tenure will only be a success, for him anyway, if he can lurch Labour left. He's got a bloody hard job doing it. But thats it. He's the first force of a hopeful shift left. Unfortunately he'll fail there too, because his enemies in the party will be there long after his tenure ends. At the moment they'll just see the Corbyn tenure as a period of prolonged embarrassment while they wait for things to blow over and revert to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Chindie said: In fairness theres more to Corbyn being unelectable than just the media saying it - it's true. Now this I disagree with I still think unelectable means sod all. I know we've had this discussion before and I still don't see it. It means nothing. It's describing a self-prophesying opinion, not a fact or even a measurable metric. It's a Schrodinger of a verb. A feedback loop. Never provable or not while the use of it affects the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, darrenm said: Now this I disagree with I still think unelectable means sod all. I know we've had this discussion before and I still don't see it. It means nothing. It's describing a self-prophesying opinion, not a fact or even a measurable metric. It's a Schrodinger of a verb. A feedback loop. Never provable or not while the use of it affects the outcome. There isn't a poll you could do where he wins. I guarentee it. He doesn't resonate with enough people. Many of his policies don't. He's unable to corral his party to not undermine him. He's utterly unable to contradict the media line that he has unfortunately helped establish about himself, or otherwise use the media to spin things for himself. Hes not electable. He just isn't. Even if you bin all the other problems, anyone voting Labour at a GE has to be aware you're voting for a party whose leader is about 3 bad days from the knives coming out. I know you really like him, and you don't like that everyone says he's unelectable. But he just is. Unfortunately for the Labour party I'd struggle to name someone who is in their ranks. Too many of the senior figures are tainted by the New Labour stink and the rest are largely utterly bland nobodies. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Politics can change very very quickly. He's there, he's elderly .He wont be there forever. Who knows who the next leader will be. If it's someone with even a smidgeon of charisma, who connects with the mood of the electorate, then voters will start to gravitate back to Labour. Politics can be quite a deep subject, a large section of the electorate however, are sadly, pretty shallow. I'm also a believer in the old adage, that Governments lose elections, opposition parties don't win them.I have every faith in the current inept Governments ability to do just that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Media owned offshore will hound anyone threatening to derail their gravy train. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Xann said: Media owned offshore will hound anyone threatening to derail their gravy train. Unfortunately thats the table he plays the game on. He either beats the game using it to his own advantage or is good enough to break it. Sadly, Corbyn does neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 31 minutes ago, Chindie said: Unfortunately for the Tory party I'd struggle to name someone who is in their ranks. Too many of the senior figures are tainted by the Thatcherite stink and the rest are largely utterly bland nobodies. That's what people were saying 20 years ago. Like I say, things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 3, 2017 Just now, meregreen said: That's what people were saying 20 years ago. Like I say, things change. I'd hope Labour supporters fancy being back in power before 2037 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, darrenm said: Until Tony started on about the ridiculous 'friend of the terrorists' tell you what Darren if you can quote me where I said "friend of the terrorists" then I'll say no more but , we were talking about principles and I argued they aren't the right principles, .. if you think the morally dubious political groups like the IRA , Hamas and Hezbollah etc are the right principles then that's fair enough , however it doesn't give you the right to belittle me or my posts because I don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, Chindie said: I'd hope Labour supporters fancy being back in power before 2037 I'm sure they do. But you get my point. In fact it is only a few years ago people were saying the Tories would never get back in. I didn't believe that about them then. And I don't believe it about Labour now.Politics is very very unpredictable. Look what's just happened over the pond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, meregreen said: In fact it is only a few years ago people were saying the Tories would never get back in. I didn't believe that about them then. And I don't believe it about Labour now. People said it about the liberals once too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, meregreen said: I'm sure they do. But you get my point. In fact it is only a few years ago people were saying the Tories would never get back in. I didn't believe that about them then. And I don't believe it about Labour now.Politics is very very unpredictable. Look what's just happened over the pond All governments become complacent, arrogant and hubristic eventually. To use a football analogy, certain teams to do quite nicely by keeping it tidy and waiting for the opposition to make a mistake, which they inevitably do. A decent strategy but you still have to have a team capable of doing the right thing for the time it takes for the opposition to defeat themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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