The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Dodgyknees]

It’s probably sensible to run with the line “no money left”, because it turns the tables on the Tories who have used that line for 14 years. It also means we can look to doing more / spending more (long term) and grow the economy in a way that gives a better way of living. Thus, the Tories won’t have a leg to stand on and it will - hopefully - mean a long term Labour government. It’s just not nice hearing Labour MPs talk the way they do, but I understand why. 

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I'm hoping Dem that things will get better with the Tories out, because 1. The tories will be out, so it'll be better and 2. Labour will be less scared of its own shadow if/when they get their hands on the actual tiller. It looks like, IMO, they've got a sound plan as to how to win, or the tactics to get to win. That's not the same thing as me agreeing with them in terms of what they say or don't say they'll do. They need to come up with that part in about 4 - 6 months time. But now isn't the right time, strategically, IMO, because the press will just slag them off, the coverage will be detrimental, whereas closer to an election there has to be fair(er) TV and radio coverage of all the parties and they will get a better hearing.

Yeah valid points pete but call we a sceptic i just dont like the u turns it doesnt inspire me with much confidence. One thing that gives me some hope is the nhs cant get any worse under these jokers 

I dont want them coming in and just blaming the tories when they make decisions or back track on what thwy promised 

Its the shittest and most annoying thing. You can only get away with that for so long. Lets see how ut pans out!

 

[ml1dch]

33 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Yeah im sure if a tory left that for a labour government we would find it hilarous here.

They did, and have. It's a treasury tradition going back decades. 

In 1964 for example outgoing Tory Chancellor Reginald Maudling left Jim Callahan a note saying “Good luck, old cock. Sorry to leave it in such a mess.” That's just what they did, and Byrne was naive enough to think that 2010s party politics was as cordial as it was in the '60s. It wasn't particularly funny, but we're not the intended audience for his tradition-based, HM Treasury in-joke.

And anyone who still cites it to parrot the "Labour left the Tories with no money" nonsense thoroughly deserves the sort of Government that we currently have. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by ml1dch

[markavfc40]

15 hours ago, Dodgyknees said:

It’s probably sensible to run with the line “no money left”, because it turns the tables on the Tories who have used that line for 14 years. 

They have wielded that line out whilst at the same time increasing debt from 1.2 trillion in 2010 to over 2.3 trillion now. 

Every time Labour announces a new policy or change in current policy the right wing media jump all over it and want it fully costed whilst the Tories get away with simply going back to the money tree. It is little wonder I guess that a year away from an election Labour are simply looking to rock the boat as little as possible, give as little away as possible for the media to jump on and simply continue to let the Tories dig their own graves which is the only thing they are any good at.

Edited July 19, 2023 by markavfc40

[markavfc40]

15 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

I dont want them coming in and just blaming the tories when they make decisions or back track on what thwy promised 

Its the shittest and most annoying thing. You can only get away with that for so long. Lets see how ut pans out!

 

What do you think they should do then? keep stum about the shambles they have inherited and be totally responsible for what the Tories have done over the last 13/14 years? I'm sure the Tories and right wing media will try that one on but it isn't going to wash with anyone with more than a few brain cells. 

I think it is better they are honest and say the Tories have destroyed the NHS and it is going to take us 5/6/7 years to fix (as it did back in 1997), that the Tories have tanked the economy and presided over pretty much zero growth and it is going to take us 3/4/5 years to achieve consistent growth, that the Tories have pushed millions more working people into now being classed as poor, millions more children into poverty and it is going to take us x amount of years to put right, etc etc, etc.....

They need to have a plan to rebuild this country and then we need to give them time to do it as we were the ones stupid enough to give the Tories 14 years to destroy it. Well some of us where. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by markavfc40

[Demitri_C]

42 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

What do you think they should do then? keep stum about the shambles they have inherited and be totally responsible for what the Tories have done over the last 13/14 years? I'm sure the Tories and right wing media will try that one on but it isn't going to wash with anyone with more than a few brain cells. 

I think it is better they are honest and say the Tories have destroyed the NHS and it is going to take us 5/6/7 years to fix (as it did back in 1997), that the Tories have tanked the economy and presided over pretty much zero growth and it is going to take us 3/4/5 years year to achieve consistent growth, that the Tories have pushed millions more working people into now being classed as poor, millions more children into poverty and it is going to take us x amount of years to put right, etc etc, etc.....

They need to have a plan to rebuild this country and then we need to give them time to do it as we were the ones stupid enough to give the Tories 14 years to destroy it. Well some of us where. 

Agree with your point about nhs but we have been over that a few times.

Labour tanked the economy  and now the tories have tanked the economy 

My point mark is we shouldnt get rid of a  terrible tory government and replace it with a mediocre labour government either. We need a strong government that the people believe in.  Just because its not the tories doesnt mean we should accept mediocrity either.  I think @Chindie has the right to have reservations. 

I will give them every opportunity to prove me wrong and lets hope they dont **** leave people without jobs like the last time they were in government 

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Labour tanked the economy

The economy tanked under Labout due to a global recession caused by the collapse of the sub-prime loan market in the USA

I'm not sure how much blame you can lay at Gordon Brown's door for that

Very few, if any, countries in the world came out of that unscathed

[limpid]

15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

My point mark is we shouldnt get rid of a  terrible tory government and replace it with a mediocre labour government either. We need a strong government that the people believe in.  Just because its not the tories doesnt mean we should accept mediocrity either.  I think @Chindie has the right to have reservations. 

Who will you be standing for?

[Xann]

The state of critical thinking in this thread, after getting the answers too.

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

The economy tanked under Labout due to a global recession caused by the collapse of the sub-prime loan market in the USA

I'm not sure how much blame you can lay at Gordon Brown's door for that

Very few, if any, countries in the world came out of that unscathed

Years later, I've warmed to Miliband, and really like him as a shadow minister now that he's confident, wiser and more comfortable in his own skin, but those few years of his Labour leadership, accepting all the blame and wholeheartedly buying in to austerity really have warped national discourse.

He had the whole shadow cabinet gather round and helped the Tories move that overton window wherever they wanted it.

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Years later, I've warmed to Miliband, and really like him as a shadow minister now that he's confident, wiser and more comfortable in his own skin, but those few years of his Labour leadership, accepting all the blame and wholeheartedly buying in to austerity really have warped national discourse.

He had the whole shadow cabinet gather round and helped the Tories move that overton window wherever they wanted it.

Agreed, see also recent and current Labour policy on Brexit

The tide appears to be turning on that issue but not because of anything Labour did

[ml1dch]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Agreed, see also recent and current Labour policy on Brexit

The tide appears to be turning on that issue but not because of anything Labour did

I'm not saying that it definitely is the case, but it's not hard to construct an argument that Labour not doing or saying anything is something that has helped turn the tide. 

And that had they done "anything" the tide may not have turned.

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

I'm not saying that it definitely is the case, but it's not hard to construct an argument that Labour not doing or saying anything is something that has helped turn the tide. 

And that had they done "anything" the tide may not have turned.

Entirely possible but now they've weaved themselves into such a position it's hard to extract themselves from it and therefore much harder to lead the country in a different direction. They were playing the short game and it will eventually bite them

[markavfc40]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Labour tanked the economy  and now the tories have tanked the economy 

 

I will give them every opportunity to prove me wrong and lets hope they dont **** leave people without jobs like the last time they were in government 

Labour didn't tank the economy. The economy tanked in 2008 due to a global recession.

Before that global recession unemployment stood at just over 5%. It is now 4%. I am not sure where you have got the idea that Labour leave people without jobs (other than blaming Gordon Brown for a global recession). The last time they came into government in 1997 unemployment was over 7% under the Tories and Labour brought that right down whilst at the same time introducing things such as the minimum wage.

[ml1dch]

23 minutes ago, bickster said:

Entirely possible but now they've weaved themselves into such a position it's hard to extract themselves from it and therefore much harder to lead the country in a different direction. They were playing the short game and it will eventually bite them

No disagreement on any of that. The next Tory general election win will almost certainly be of the "fix Labour's disastrous Brexit" flavour, with them taking back all the seats they're going to lose next year.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, ml1dch said:

The next Tory general election win will almost certainly be of the "fix Labour's disastrous Brexit" flavour

I sincerely hope they run that as a campaign at some point but I don't see them being in power for at least a decade, possibly a decade and a half, possibly ever again after they lose

It really isn't stacking up well for them, their defeat will be worse than 1997 and their recovery much longer if they can even manage it, the demographics really are stacked against them this time

I'm also not a fan of the idea either in that it will tie us to FPTP for much longer than I'd hoped

[Jon]

5 hours ago, Seat68 said:

Thats who the tories want though, they want people who will look at Greg Hands tweets and accept it at face value, they want the people who are not prepared to fact check, have critical thought or know its a joke, they want them, as they are the ones that will say, they are as bad as each other and they might as well put their X next to a tory. 

Are you suggesting Dem hasn't done his research?! 

[Seat68]

7 hours ago, Jon said:

Are you suggesting Dem hasn't done his research?! 

Definitely not as that would be post on poster I think, but people in general let's say. 

[blandy]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

Entirely possible but now they've weaved themselves into such a position it's hard to extract themselves from it and therefore much harder to lead the country in a different direction. They were playing the short game and it will eventually bite them

All opinions have the same weight, but I completely disagree. Labour hasn’t been playing the short game, it’s been the long game since Starmer took over. The whole strategy he’s followed has been and continues to be a long term one. Of course there have been and are things he’s needed to do in the short term, but all of them have been in support of the long term. He’s been aided by Tory implosion, but still it’s impressive from an observer’s standpoint, to see what he’s doing, because it’s completely different to what any other party leader has done.

It’s not without risk. The two main risks are that internally, Labour people go off on one and secondly that when it comes to election time people (voters) will not like the truth, but will want lies and unfulfillable promises spoon feeding to them.

[Demitri_C]

12 hours ago, bickster said:

The economy tanked under Labout due to a global recession caused by the collapse of the sub-prime loan market in the USA

I'm not sure how much blame you can lay at Gordon Brown's door for that

Very few, if any, countries in the world came out of that unscathed

Nothing on bliars war? That must have cost a few bob?

So why we not excluding thw obvious in this scenario COVID which was much worse than the credit crunch? 

Yes they wasted money paying their mates will all know this but a huge chunk of the debt muat have gone on furlough

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Demitri_C