ml1dch Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, Genie said: Levelling up, is what exactly? Virtually the perfect definition of over-promising. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 7 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Virtually the perfect definition of over-promising. Nothing was promised was it? It’s just a slogan which is the point. They didn’t fail because they never actually promised anything specific, plus they’ll no doubt argue they haven’t finished. Get Brexit done Boris got Brexit done Next leader needs to fix Brexit. What is Brexit? What does success look like? Nobody has a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanpabloangel18 Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 16 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Inspirational. Almost intentionally bad. If you bothered to read on there was also precious little detail under these vapid 5 principles. I still firmly believe there is a strong core support for traditional left wing policy in this country. I know he's the butt of every joke these days but 12.9m voted for Corbyn in 2017 and 10.3m in the disastrous 2019 election (Boris 14.0m). Whatever you think of Corbyn the man and his policies, it's undeniable that he got large numbers of (particularly young) people inspired and galvanised by quite radical left wing ideas. That could easily happen again - Labour is/was dying out for a younger more electable leader who can push a modern left wing agenda without the Corbyn "baggage", and I think they'd do very well 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 2 minutes ago, Genie said: Nothing was promised was it? It’s just a slogan which is the point. Plenty was promised. The “slogan” covered many things. Electrifying rail lines, HS2 to Leeds, Quote promises to refocus education spending on disadvantaged parts of the country and eliminate illiteracy and innumeracy; bring the rest of the country's public transport closer to London standards, and provide access to 5G broadband for the "large majority" of households. Derelict urban sites in 20 towns and cities will be targeted for redevelopment intended to create more high-quality jobs, with Sheffield and Wolverhampton the first places selected. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60216307 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 6 minutes ago, juanpabloangel18 said: Whatever you think of Corbyn the man and his policies, it's undeniable that he got large numbers of (particularly young) people inspired and galvanised by quite radical left wing ideas. That could easily happen again - Labour is/was dying out for a younger more electable leader who can push a modern left wing agenda without the Corbyn "baggage", and I think they'd do very well This is spot on IMO. The same applies abroad too, like AOC in the US. The flip side is that there will be an awful lot of pensioners and so on who would hate the whole “project”. I won’t go over Corbyn again, or even his manifesto, other than to say the world has changed significantly in the past few years and a more focused version of it, updated for today’s world would be necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, blandy said: Plenty was promised. The “slogan” covered many things. Electrifying rail lines, HS2 to Leeds, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60216307 Still 8 years to run on that plan, they might deliver Edited July 27, 2022 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 33 minutes ago, Genie said: They didn’t fail because they never actually promised anything specific, plus they’ll no doubt argue they haven’t finished. Ah but they did promise specifics - 40 New Hospitals is just one pledge I remember 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 10 minutes ago, bickster said: Ah but they did promise specifics - 40 New Hospitals is just one pledge I remember Ah ok, I thought that was something else, a general commitment to more hospitals (not “levelling up” specific). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2022 On 25/07/2022 at 20:18, fruitvilla said: Here's my take ... I don't care who does the mail, rail, water etc so long it is done effectively and efficiently from a tax, economy and environment point of view. I don't think either publicly or privately owned utilities have a monopoly of doing things efficiently or poorly. For the publicly owned model we need a really effective government that will put the public "good" ahead of its political needs. Similarly the private model will require effective regulation of the service providers. Tricky on the whole as the situation and technologies change. Taking a look at the world history and the political structures therein I get a sense of different pendula doing their thing. To be fair my mate works for Severn Trent. His package is absolutely amazing, way more than he'd ever get in the "normal" private sector. Let's face it they are a private company with a monopoly. I don't get the impression that they are a lean mean machine at all, I think they've a licence fo print money. I'm not saying nationalising it would save any money or reduce costs, but I don't think market forces and fair competition are giving consumers an edge under the current system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ingram85 Posted July 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 27, 2022 20 minutes ago, sidcow said: To be fair my mate works for Severn Trent. His package is absolutely amazing 2 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 21 minutes ago, sidcow said: I don't think market forces and fair competition are giving consumers an edge under the current system. Water's essentially a monopoly, so that's why the charges for it are basically set by OFWAT - certainly limited by them - they even went down a few years ago (because of excessive profits or something). It shows that 2 things are possible - limiting, even reducing bills and also acting on excessive profiteering. Other things which need looking at are too much cost cutting by water companies (again seeking higher profits) leading to for example dam walls becoming weak and not being spotted, or on fixing leaks, or on excessive extraction of water from rivers and streams...and so on. All those things can and should be acted upon, water companies compelled to behave better, and all that can be done without nationalising water. I'd never have privatised it, but there you go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 1 hour ago, blandy said: I won’t go over Corbyn again, or even his manifesto, other than to say the world has changed significantly in the past few years and a more focused version of it, updated for today’s world would be necessary Read a Twitter thread earlier which I annoyingly can't find now which basically made this point. Main argument was that Labour seem to have learnt completely the wrong lessons from Corbynism. His programme of economic radicalism wasn't universally unpopular, there were elements of it which resonated with a wide swathe of voters - the problem was in large part that people didn't trust them to deliver it because he and others were perceived as being a bit loopy in other ways. There is greater appetite for public spending and nationalisation of certain industries/utilities than there has been for decades, amidst the worst cost of living crisis in a generation. That the Labour Party has nothing to offer in these circumstances is infuriating. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 2 hours ago, juanpabloangel18 said: these vapid 5 principles. 6. No more Homework. 7. Free sweets for everyone. I find them so vague and almost meaningless, the 5. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 8 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said: Read a Twitter thread earlier which I annoyingly can't find now which basically made this point. Main argument was that Labour seem to have learnt completely the wrong lessons from Corbynism. His programme of economic radicalism wasn't universally unpopular, there were elements of it which resonated with a wide swathe of voters - the problem was in large part that people didn't trust them to deliver it because he and others were perceived as being a bit loopy in other ways. There is greater appetite for public spending and nationalisation of certain industries/utilities than there has been for decades, amidst the worst cost of living crisis in a generation. That the Labour Party has nothing to offer in these circumstances is infuriating. I think that's right. A lot of my posts in here are not about my personal views on policies, but more about what I think Labour's strategy is, and why it might be doing what it is. I liked about half of Corbyn's policies, didn't mind some others and disliked a few. I think there are a lot of other people similar in that way. One of the things any party, and especially an opposition party has to do is be very clear about maybe 3 or 4 things - whatever the main issues of the time are. It's even more true now than in 2019 and 2017 (or was it 2015?). Last time out Labour had too many messages and was horrifically, mind bogglingly, unclear on the main thing at the time (Brexit). Another thing is that realistically while there may be loads and loads of things that need massively fixing, no Government when it comes in is going to be able to fix them all, so they need to have a clear plan to address the most pressing ones. People might have a different list, but today it's something like (from reading the media stories) 1. Cost of living and inflation. 2. NHS collapsing. 3. Brexit isn't working - travel chaos, farmers and fishermen and exporters struggling to export their goods. 4. Climate change. 5. Pollution of the air and water and the impact that has on humans and wildlife. So whatever anyone's list, really, Labour needs to worry less about messaging on (say) nationalising Royal Mail, or Water or whatever else, because that stuff is hugely time consuming, in terms of Parliamentary time and because there are far more immediate and urgent things to address, that matter to the people they're trying to get to elect them to power. But that has the downside of not looking very inspiring or offering much more than "not effing everything up like the Tories do", so they do need to find something hopey-changey. I hope it's around environmental stuff and the consequential generation of new jobs, better insulation, renewable energy, and all that kind of stuff, that will help people with bills and health, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 I imagine this will go down well in some quarters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 5 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I imagine this will go down well in some quarters... On the same day that Militant Mick called for a General Strike if Truss becomes PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted July 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 27, 2022 2 minutes ago, bickster said: On the same day that Militant Mick called for a General Strike if Truss becomes PM After Truss said that she would begin working immediately on making strikes illegal for all workers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 7 hours ago, Genie said: Isn’t that the same as what I said? Conservatives, but with less scandal and corruption? They seem to be just promising a continuation of what we have, but with less lies (remains to be seen if/when they actually get into power). Exactly. We're just like that lot, who we supposedly distrust and fundamentally disagree with, but we're gonna do the same kind of things, but with slightly less lying. Some 'labour' party. It's a shell of what it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 24 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I imagine this will go down well in some quarters... Not a surprise though, it was already made clear that Starmer would do this to anyone attending strikes. As Mick Guevara said, Starmer needs to express his values and have them understood by people and policy should stem from those values. Only Starmer doesn't have any values and if he does he is unable to express them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 3 hours ago, icouldtelltheworld said: That the Labour Party has nothing to offer in these circumstances is infuriating. Your whole post was spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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