pacbuddies Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree, 'if' and 'did' are also 2 different things and the 'if' word keeps popping up in posts to try to provide a defence for Lambert e.g. 'if our strikers had put away their chances'. If my auntie had b******s she would be my uncle. oh dear! top marks for not only using the most hackneyed expression on the internet but also for the way you have inelegantly crowbarred it into place. Brilliant Why thank you. Just 'Like' my post in future and save your typing skills for more elegant compositions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazvfc Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is that much of a positive? Things are really bad if our positives are to do with only losing by one goal. Nomate it's not but when someone makes a point that is a fact and then a negative spin is put on it by what COULD OR SHOULD have happened but didn't that should be highlighted, just as all the facts about goals scored etc by villa are facts and undesputable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Someone made a comment that our forwards are in poor form and that that isnt helping. Everyone (everyone) knows that that is only one element of our problems Well you've interpreted it one way but it doesn't put it across like that. You seem angry because I interpreted it differently. You always post like that!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post avfc1982am Posted January 19, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet? It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle. Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team! 12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times. Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is that much of a positive? Things are really bad if our positives are to do with only losing by one goal.Nomate it's not but when someone makes a point that is a fact and then a negative spin is put on it by what COULD OR SHOULD have happened but didn't that should be highlighted, just as all the facts about goals scored etc by villa are facts and undesputable. That is true. Its just hard to see it as a positive for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunnski Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet? It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle.Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team!12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times.Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?! Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermie123 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree, 'if' and 'did' are also 2 different things and the 'if' word keeps popping up in posts to try to provide a defence for Lambert e.g. 'if our strikers had put away their chances'. If my auntie had b******s she would be my uncle. oh dear! top marks for not only using the most hackneyed expression on the internet but also for the way you have inelegantly crowbarred it into place. Brilliant Why thank you. Just 'Like' my post in future and save your typing skills for more elegant compositions. "If my cockerels had been hens i would have got more eggs" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post foreveryoung Posted January 19, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet? It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle. Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team! 12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times. Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?! Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal. Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet? It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle. Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team! 12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times. Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?! Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal. I'm not trying to put down your point at all mate. I just made a point, asking the question and throwing in my conclusions. I think personally as I have stated that I don't think additional signings are necessarily going to solve the issues. For instance, say we bring in another AM, take out one of the DM's do you think this will provide the cover to allow the fullbacks to support the attack? Bringing in players is all well and good but if the set up ain't right it ain't working. Spending money is no guarantee we will turn a corner, sooner or later the manager has to prove he is tactically adaptable and knows how to draw the quality out of his players. It's like a workman blaming the tool's scenario without proving he can do the job, if you get my drift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunnski Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet?It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle.Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team!12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times.Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?!Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal. Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert. I don't like the system either but when we have such shit attacking options apart from Benteke then I can understand why we are set up that way. Gabby, Weimann and Zogbia have been major let downs. Weimann is the only one I have hope for as he should be playing upfront but he atleast gives it everything no matter where he is playing. If we make a couple of signings that displace Gabby and push Zogbia out of the squad then we will be a much stronger side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet? It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle. Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team! 12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times. Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?! Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal. Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert. I don't like the system either but when we have such shit attacking options apart from Benteke then I can understand why we are set up that way. Gabby, Weimann and Zogbia have been major let downs. Weimann is the only one I have hope for as he should be playing upfront but he atleast gives it everything no matter where he is playing. If we make a couple of signings that displace Gabby and push Zogbia out of the squad then we will be a much stronger side. This is why its must be a manager issue surely. Bacuna instead of Gabby. You have to have balls in this game and I don't see Lambert taking many risks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?! I don't see too many people putting all the blame on the players? But certainly for me this is a factor - I beleive our forwards have been poor this season in both creating chances and scoring them - Benteke, Gabby and Weimann are all capable of better I agree about the lack of width - but spotting it is one thing and sorting it out not to the detriment of another area of our game is another. Many on here will have their view on selections, tactics and formations - I'm not making any excuses for Lambert but very often a fans have a simplistic view of things. "we should attack more" "we need to play two wingers" "Through Grealish and Robinson in they couldn't do any worse" etc etc. I just think that it is much more complicated and delicate than that We're struggling at the moment - with the squad we have I would have liked to see us on 6-8 points more by now. Some to the reason for that is poor form of players, some is injuries, some is sendings off, and some I'm sure are things that the manager and coaching staff could have done better If Mourinho becomes available, or Fergie comes out of retirement, I'd be in the Lambert out camp but at the moment I'm forced to stick with him over an unknown, random manager in the Magath, Curbishly Mccarthy-mold. Last season people were asking for Rednapp, Bruce or Pearce - would you take any of them now? I wouldn't 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunnski Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet?It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle.Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team!12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times.Yes it is... You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?!Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal. I'm not trying to put down your point at all mate. I just made a point, asking the question and throwing in my conclusions. I think personally as I have stated that I don't think additional signings are necessarily going to solve the issues. For instance, say we bring in another AM, take out one of the DM's do you think this will provide the cover to allow the fullbacks to support the attack? Bringing in players is all well and good but if the set up ain't right it ain't working. Spending money is no guarantee we will turn a corner, sooner or later the manager has to prove he is tactically adaptable and knows how to draw the quality out of his players. It's like a workman blaming the tool's scenario without proving he can do the job, if you get my drift. Well in this case I think that if Lambert is given the funds to sign a couple of quality players that come into the starting 11 and take the place of Gabby and Cleverly then it's hard to argue that we wouldn't improve as those 2 cause so many of our attacks to break down. Gabby just gives the ball away when he actually gets on it and Cleverly seems only capable of passing backwards and slowing everything down. As for the tools reference, if your boss doesn't give you the right tools to do the job then things arent gonna go smoothly and will lead to problems. All in All I get your point and it's a fair point but Imo it's been a needs must kind of situation for Lambert for the past couple of seasons and it gonna get much better until he is given the funds to improve us in attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunnski Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is the season over yet?It would take some amazing performances to finish the season in order to claim it hasn't been a struggle.Amazing performances? We just have to turn the corner and start scoring. We have been well in games and are hard to score against. We have been let down by our forwards and if any of Gabby, Benteke or Weimann had hit some decent form and banged in a few more goals we would be pushing top 10 easy. We aren't that far off being a solid all round team!12 points from 18 games. That's not because we've been let down by our forwards at times.Yes it is...You have to look at things on the whole. Fair enough the forwards aren't scoring-but why? This is partially down to the midfield which would then lead to look at selections..tactics..formation...manager etc. There comes a point when you can't continually blame the players. The thing is unless you play a system that suits the players or they are played in natural positions how can you really judge them? There is a real unbalance with the team at the moment and I would go as far as saying that when we do go forward we look completely fragile down the flanks. Even in games whereby we've missed chances, so did the opposition. Expecting Hutton and cissokho to provide width and balance to the attack without wide cover leaves them exposed and us open to the counter. Little thing's like this need to be addressed and until they are people can bang on about this player and that player are to blame but we will still see the same results. It's easy to blame players but sooner or later who is responsible for how they play if it's continually not working?!Ye I agree with what you are saying and by stating we have been let down by our forwards not putting the chances away I wasn't claiming that to be the only reason for how things are atm. A couple of quality attacking signings could totally turn us around as we aren't being dominated in the majority of games and when we lose its usually just by 1 goal.Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert.I don't like the system either but when we have such shit attacking options apart from Benteke then I can understand why we are set up that way. Gabby, Weimann and Zogbia have been major let downs. Weimann is the only one I have hope for as he should be playing upfront but he atleast gives it everything no matter where he is playing. If we make a couple of signings that displace Gabby and push Zogbia out of the squad then we will be a much stronger side. This is why its must be a manager issue surely. Bacuna instead of Gabby. You have to have balls in this game and I don't see Lambert taking many risks. Well this is where I totally agree with you. I understand why Lambert has this fear of changing things when you consider the run we had when we basically lost 15-0 over 3 games and other such situations but it's become a flaw in his management style that needs to change if we are to improve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert. so if you dont want the full backs to overlap, what role do you have in mind for them? also id suggest that if Pardew did say that, which i doubt, he concentrates on sorting palace out rather than advising villa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villanun Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Plus if he were to say "the pressure is really tough to be honest" what would people say then? Damned if he does damned if he doesnt Speaking personally... Well, if he'd said it at the end of last season I'd have thought "good on him for being honest". If he'd said it a few weeks ago I'd have praised it as a miracle. But quite frankly, after the Leicester game and telling us that "the fans expectations outweigh the reality at the club" simply because we'd had the temerity to be annoyed at losing to the bottom side in the league without even looking like scoring, if he said it now I'd tell him to do one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villanun Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert. so if you dont want the full backs to overlap, what role do you have in mind for them? No-one said they couldn't overlap, but for a while now they've been our primary source of attacking play and given that they're not great crossers that's not a great idea. How many forward passes our runs have our midfielders made in recent matches? Why did the crowd get so excited when Gil came on? We need other attacking options, not just to do the same thing over and over again. Edited January 19, 2015 by Villanun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Its the system. We are way to tight in the centre of the pitch. Neither Sissokho or Hutton should be used as creators on the wing, its crazy, they cannot cross a ball for shit. We need to open out if we are going to use the possession game, diagonal balls, throught balls. I heard Pardew on talkshite saying how he is coaching Crystal palace into playing expansive football, he quoted Villa saying "you cannot play such a tight game as Villa do as it just does not work in the premier League." Seems everyone realises it apart from Lambert. so if you dont want the full backs to overlap, what role do you have in mind for them? No-one said they couldn't overlap, but for a while now they've been our primary source of attacking play and given that they're not great crossers that's not a great idea. How many forward passes our runs have our midfielders made in recent matches? Why did the crowd get so excited when Gil came on? We need other attacking options, not just to do the same thing over and over again. I agree. Not easy though with the current squad. It gets expensive to recruit effective attacking midfielders who also deliver solidity when you defend. Bacuna and Grealish offer something going forward but perhaps at a cost elsewhere? Lets hope Gil continues from his good start and that we can get a Sinclair-type in too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Jesus H Christ. Of course I support the club and those inferring I do not are not correct (polite way of putting it) But in a thread about the manager there are obviously people we do not support him and people who do, in a response to a post about my opinion questionning that I will support him come what may I responded to that. It does not mean I do not support the club. If you support the manager "come what may" then you can't support the club itself, as what you're effectively saying is that however badly the manager does, he retains your loyalty.Risso read my bit again that you have quoted FFs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacbuddies Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I don't know what all the moans and groans are for on this thread. We are 15th ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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