praisedmambo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 We're currently going backwards in goals scored but forwards defensively, conceding fewer goals. We're more solid this season than ever before and funnily enough most of our investment has one on the defence. He's also in tha time saved the club a rediculous amount of money, money that was being wasted on players who didn't deserve to bleed the club dry. We've gone forwards in many respects. We must sort the attack out now, of course, but it's way too simplistic to say 'we've gone backwards therefore sack him' But the things you say we've gone forward in have had no effect on results. Defence improves is a forward step, the attack becomes the worst in the entire country and most top leagues in Europe is a massive step back. 42 points in his first year, 38 in the last and this years not looking great. The last 18 games have been absolutely shocking in terms of points and goals scored and that's not just down to the fact he can't spend large amounts of money. Cool. Well, defence definitely has an affect on results unless I've had this football thing confused all these years. Having to cut costs, I'm pretty sure, affects the players you have available too...and I'm pretty sure the players you actually use in the football game have an affect on the results too. Otherwise I don't know why Barcelona bother with messi or Suarez, they may as well have bought Jordan Bowery for about 400k and paid him peanuts. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 We're currently going backwards in goals scored but forwards defensively, conceding fewer goals. We're more solid this season than ever before and funnily enough most of our investment has one on the defence. He's also in tha time saved the club a rediculous amount of money, money that was being wasted on players who didn't deserve to bleed the club dry. We've gone forwards in many respects. We must sort the attack out now, of course, but it's way too simplistic to say 'we've gone backwards therefore sack him' But the things you say we've gone forward in have had no effect on results. Defence improves is a forward step, the attack becomes the worst in the entire country and most top leagues in Europe is a massive step back. 42 points in his first year, 38 in the last and this years not looking great. The last 18 games have been absolutely shocking in terms of points and goals scored and that's not just down to the fact he can't spend large amounts of money. Of course not. But when all you're given (so far, at least) to resolve your attacking problems is £3m to spend, what kind of situation are you in? Supposedly, we can't even afford (or, perhaps, aren't willing to spend) £4m and £50k/wk for a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Just out of interest, how many players were bought with the £43m ? And how much was wasted, considering how many are out on loan/never coming back. Yeah, go on, how much? We'll have to exclude Benteke, Kozak, Okore, Sanchez, Westwood, Vlaar, Cissokho, Bacuna on the basis of them all still making various positive contributions in the squad. Not counting Gil, who to be fair is probably not part of the 43 million. Assuming KEA isn't part of the 43 million or the "wasted" amount, since he's been sold back. I'm going to go ahead and exclude Lowton, because he is decent backup in attack and his goal gained us 3 valuable points last season. Which leaves around 12 million pounds on players who we won't recoup the purchase price on. So let's say we don't sell anyone for a profit: he's "wasted" 8 million pounds. That is a phenomenally good record, be honest. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 And plays them on a regular basis. Let's not forget that both Weimann and Gabby have scored goals at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praisedmambo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 And he had to cut costs. The longer it went on, losing 50mil, the more debt we'd build, the more money wasted that could go on our now still meagre spending. If we hadn't cut costs we'd be joining the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth. That's where we were heading...therefore, he ha done a very very good thing. It was, interestingly, too big a mess for MON to sort out it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 We're currently going backwards in goals scored but forwards defensively, conceding fewer goals. We're more solid this season than ever before and funnily enough most of our investment has one on the defence. He's also in tha time saved the club a rediculous amount of money, money that was being wasted on players who didn't deserve to bleed the club dry. We've gone forwards in many respects. We must sort the attack out now, of course, but it's way too simplistic to say 'we've gone backwards therefore sack him'But the things you say we've gone forward in have had no effect on results. Defence improves is a forward step, the attack becomes the worst in the entire country and most top leagues in Europe is a massive step back. 42 points in his first year, 38 in the last and this years not looking great. The last 18 games have been absolutely shocking in terms of points and goals scored and that's not just down to the fact he can't spend large amounts of money. Cool. Well, defence definitely has an affect on results unless I've had this football thing confused all these years. Having to cut costs, I'm pretty sure, affects the players you have available too...and I'm pretty sure the players you actually use in the football game have an affect on the results too. Otherwise I don't know why Barcelona bother with messi or Suarez, they may as well have bought Jordan Bowery for about 400k and paid him peanuts. I think you've read my point wrong. So cool, well how have the things you mentioned as improving and moving forward effected our results? Have our results improved under Lambert the longer he spends with the team? We basically average a point a game over a 100 game period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 And he had to cut costs. The longer it went on, losing 50mil, the more debt we'd build, the more money wasted that could go on our now still meagre spending. If we hadn't cut costs we'd be joining the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth. That's where we were heading...therefore, he ha done a very very good thing. It was, interestingly, too big a mess for MON to sort out it seems. While cutting costs has he replaced with better? I'd say in most cases he has, which is full credit to him. So he's been able to improve the squad, which I think we all agree on, so then why are we going backwards in terms of our results? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Otherwise I don't know why Barcelona bother with messi or Suarez, they may as well have bought Jordan Bowery for about 400k and paid him peanuts. I don't know either. Their manager is heaps better than ours. It's all about getting the best out of the players you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 And he had to cut costs. The longer it went on, losing 50mil, the more debt we'd build, the more money wasted that could go on our now still meagre spending. If we hadn't cut costs we'd be joining the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth. That's where we were heading...therefore, he ha done a very very good thing. It was, interestingly, too big a mess for MON to sort out it seems. While cutting costs has he replaced with better? I'd say in most cases he has, which is full credit to him. So he's been able to improve the squad, which I think we all agree on, so then why are we going backwards in terms of our results? a] Is the first team significantly better than before? (I'd say yes, definitely better. Not sure how good it is, but definitely better.) b] Have other teams in the league improved? (Yes, almost all of them. Almost all of them have spent more than us as well - you need to ignore the net spend bollocks here. In simple terms, most clubs outspend Aston Villa.) c] Is football a game whereby the "best squad" always wins? (No, of course not. Look at Borussia Dortmund this season as an absolute prime example.) d] Are we really going backwards? (We're currently worse off on points compared to last season, but we've remained consistently lower-mid table for Lambert's entire duration. We're standing still.) e] Where do you expect to be right now, given all of the above? (For me, anywhere between 17th and 12th.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This may sound too simplistic but I don't think it is. 1. Stop using Hutton and Cissokho as creative players. Allow them to overlap on occasions but their focus should be defense. 2. Stop playing 3 very similar central midfielders. Sacrifice one and move the other one up behind the striker, If needs be drop the 2 remaining midfielders further back to cover if the pressure is on. 3. Get some ACTUAL wide players. This allows more variety of attacks, stops our fullbacks from needing to bomb on so much and actually gives us more balance defensively. 4. Play to Benteke's strengths. Provide the guy with multiple opportunities per game and he will score. I don't see how these changes are that difficult to implement. Even if for number 3 we have to drop Andi and Gabby for CNZ, Bacuna or Grealish. Just give the team some balance in every aspect both positional and tactical. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I don't know what all the moans and groans are for on this thread. We are 15th ffs. As 11th is the best i would expect we're in and around then! Good Glad you are happy. Let me know when we are so low that you no longer consider us to be 'in and around' where you would expect us to be at best. I'll judge at the end of the season. The height of my expectations is 10th, but realistically I would settle for whatever position say 42 points brings (12th last season). Where would we need to finish for you to change your mind on Lambert? Having witnessed more recent events and the current situation we find ourselves in I cannot foresee a situation this season where I will be changing my mind about Paul Lambert. Why would I change a stance that has been underpinned by over two and a half years of mainly utter garbage performances and results based on the 16 games that are left this season? He would have to survive in the PL this season and finish in the top half of the league next season for me to consider a change of heart. As for you mentioning 42 points, I hope you were just joking because we will get nowhere near that amount of points without a significant shift in fortunes. So really debating this with you is pointless - no matter what we do this season you want him gone So if he we finished on 42 points you still want him out? If we finished 10th you still want him out? If we win the FA Cup you still want him out? All of your points are based on wishful thinking. My stance is based on hard evidence and logic. If all you are going to come up with is 'if this' 'if that' then you really don't have a basis for debate. Haha..get over yourself. I noticed that last week you posted "I am never wrong" ... it must be nice to have such certainty!! It's a forum for speculation so of course people will talk about if this happens or if that happens.....continually putting "If my Auntie had balls she'd be my uncle" doesnt really move the debate forward does it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praisedmambo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) And he had to cut costs. The longer it went on, losing 50mil, the more debt we'd build, the more money wasted that could go on our now still meagre spending. If we hadn't cut costs we'd be joining the likes of Leeds and Portsmouth. That's where we were heading...therefore, he ha done a very very good thing. It was, interestingly, too big a mess for MON to sort out it seems.While cutting costs has he replaced with better? I'd say in most cases he has, which is full credit to him. So he's been able to improve the squad, which I think we all agree on, so then why are we going backwards in terms of our results? ... Edited January 20, 2015 by praisedmambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This may sound too simplistic but I don't think it is. 1. Stop using Hutton and Cissokho as creative players. Allow them to overlap on occasions but their focus should be defense. 2. Stop playing 3 very similar central midfielders. Sacrifice one and move the other one up behind the striker, If needs be drop the 2 remaining midfielders further back to cover if the pressure is on. 3. Get some ACTUAL wide players. This allows more variety of attacks, stops our fullbacks from needing to bomb on so much and actually gives us more balance defensively. 4. Play to Benteke's strengths. Provide the guy with multiple opportunities per game and he will score. I don't see how these changes are that difficult to implement. Even if for number 3 we have to drop Andi and Gabby for CNZ, Bacuna or Grealish. Just give the team some balance in every aspect both positional and tactical. Agree with a lot of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 VillaCas totally agree with some of the point's you've made but let me try and answer the bold if possible without offending. Firstly can anyone honestly say as shit as gabby is at times since benteke has come back he isn't just being facilitated in an AM/support role? Gabby never plays there and to play to his strengths you need to give him space with the ball infront- not with his back to goal which is how he has being played. Wiemann plays best when up top through the middle, not as a link up player. And I think Benteke has been feeding off scraps the last few games in fairness to him. The width issue I completely understand where your coming from with,' the detriment to other areas' comment, let me say this though. Footballers might not in general all be the smartest of cookies but top level footballers are very knowledgeable when it comes to positional patterns, passages of play, etc. If there are deficiencies then good coaching and instructions should improve things eventually especially with decent players- which we have. Also if players aren't pulling their weight then why is that? And why are they not getting dropped? Personally I'm not interested in simplistic views without talking about possible resolutions. As for the managers you mentioned I wouldn't want any of them but that doesn't mean there aren't managers out there that would come and do a better job. Not knowing something is never reason enough to not try and find find out what it is you don't know! Some very good points. If I can respond in order with my take on these. Firstly Gabby & Weimann - I agree that they are being asked to play roles to which they are not well suited. When we were counterattacking they made some sense. once that the counterattacking style was changed (people were now too prepared for it) they look square pegs in round holes. I'm sure that Lambert would love to have players like Downing, Milner and Young at his disposal but he is stuck with Gabby and Weimann. Why not play Grealish and Bacuna in these positions? My guess is that on balance he prefers what Gabby and Weimann give him in robustness and solidity against the more creative play of the other pair. Hopefully Gil and another will sort this out Secondly on width. Much of the above relates to this. Also people will say Lambert has bought these players why did he not buy more width - I think that this is because a. he original planned us as a counterattacking side and width was not so much of a priority and b. width is expensive - good wide players are at a premium. I don't fully agree that modern footballers just need to be told - look at Juan Mata as a high level example of this. I don't think it is that players are not pulling their weight I just think that they are limited. I'm sure Lambert would love to rotate players but he hasnt got the quality in depth to do it "Not knowing something is never reason enough to not try and find find out what it is you don't know" - I don't fully understand what you mean here - IF you mean it's worth sacking Lambert and taking a chance on an unknown manager I don't agree. You may well mean something else by this comment though Some think that Lambert is "naive and clueless", personally I think he is a decent manager in a very very difficult situation - the worst situation here for 30+ years. We are on a very poor run and given the next couple of league games it's likely to get worse rather than better in the short term. I'm backing and supporting Lambert to put it right and to be honest as he is clearly going nowhere it would be in the best interest of the club if everyone got behind him and the team to the end of the season and then considered our options So to sum up nothing is really his fault. Are there any decisions Lambert has made that you don't agree with or can't find a reason to support it even if it hasn't worked? You've made an incorrect summing up. Why do you think Lambert perseveres with Gabby and Weimann? Pig headed ignorance? Why do you think he is not starting Grealish every game? Plain Stupidity? I'm trying to understand the reasons behind decisions. That doesnt mean I agree with every one, or that every decision is perfect, far from it but I try to understand the logic I can't beleive that you really think "reasons" is exactly the same thing as "excuses" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praisedmambo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This may sound too simplistic but I don't think it is. 1. Stop using Hutton and Cissokho as creative players. Allow them to overlap on occasions but their focus should be defense. 2. Stop playing 3 very similar central midfielders. Sacrifice one and move the other one up behind the striker, If needs be drop the 2 remaining midfielders further back to cover if the pressure is on. 3. Get some ACTUAL wide players. This allows more variety of attacks, stops our fullbacks from needing to bomb on so much and actually gives us more balance defensively. 4. Play to Benteke's strengths. Provide the guy with multiple opportunities per game and he will score. I don't see how these changes are that difficult to implement. Even if for number 3 we have to drop Andi and Gabby for CNZ, Bacuna or Grealish. Just give the team some balance in every aspect both positional and tactical. Agree with a lot of that. Get some actual wide players eh. Apparently that's what we're doing but I don't know if you've noticed but we're pretty skint. Also, I don't believe Bacuna is the answer to any problem. He's as unable to do anything constructive as gabby, Andi or N'Zogbia for that matter too. Which only leaves grealish. To be fair to Lambert we had Joe Cole playing advanced when fit, those two times that's happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Where do you expect to be right now, given all of the above? (For me, anywhere between 17th and 12th.) Fair points made in the other ones. For this IMO if all I cared about was our league position I wouldn't go to games and just check my sky sports app on a Saturday night. In terms of where I expect to be I think I've had a pretty simple, realistic expectation of just improving. If we're 14th,15th or 16th it doesn't really matter to me if there's no improvement in results. We got 42 points in his first season, I don't think its crazy to expect an improvement on that 2 years later. If he could of achieved 47/48 points this year I'd probably have been looking forward to seeing us progress more under him next season but there's nothing. Theres nothing that makes me think the longer we keep him the better will we do. So I don't see the point. I also think the crowds will continue to grow in wanting him gone which can only be a negative effect for the club . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This may sound too simplistic but I don't think it is. 1. Stop using Hutton and Cissokho as creative players. Allow them to overlap on occasions but their focus should be defense. 2. Stop playing 3 very similar central midfielders. Sacrifice one and move the other one up behind the striker, If needs be drop the 2 remaining midfielders further back to cover if the pressure is on. 3. Get some ACTUAL wide players. This allows more variety of attacks, stops our fullbacks from needing to bomb on so much and actually gives us more balance defensively. 4. Play to Benteke's strengths. Provide the guy with multiple opportunities per game and he will score. I don't see how these changes are that difficult to implement. Even if for number 3 we have to drop Andi and Gabby for CNZ, Bacuna or Grealish. Just give the team some balance in every aspect both positional and tactical.Agree with a lot of that. Get some actual wide players eh. Apparently that's what we're doing but I don't know if you've noticed but we're pretty skint. Also, I don't believe Bacuna is the answer to any problem. He's as unable to do anything constructive as gabby, Andi or N'Zogbia for that matter too. Which only leaves grealish. To be fair to Lambert we had Joe Cole playing advanced when fit, those two times that's happened So when we bid £8 million for cleverley there was no way we could have tried to sign a wide player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 VillaCas totally agree with some of the point's you've made but let me try and answer the bold if possible without offending. Firstly can anyone honestly say as shit as gabby is at times since benteke has come back he isn't just being facilitated in an AM/support role? Gabby never plays there and to play to his strengths you need to give him space with the ball infront- not with his back to goal which is how he has being played. Wiemann plays best when up top through the middle, not as a link up player. And I think Benteke has been feeding off scraps the last few games in fairness to him. The width issue I completely understand where your coming from with,' the detriment to other areas' comment, let me say this though. Footballers might not in general all be the smartest of cookies but top level footballers are very knowledgeable when it comes to positional patterns, passages of play, etc. If there are deficiencies then good coaching and instructions should improve things eventually especially with decent players- which we have. Also if players aren't pulling their weight then why is that? And why are they not getting dropped? Personally I'm not interested in simplistic views without talking about possible resolutions. As for the managers you mentioned I wouldn't want any of them but that doesn't mean there aren't managers out there that would come and do a better job. Not knowing something is never reason enough to not try and find find out what it is you don't know! Some very good points. If I can respond in order with my take on these. Firstly Gabby & Weimann - I agree that they are being asked to play roles to which they are not well suited. When we were counterattacking they made some sense. once that the counterattacking style was changed (people were now too prepared for it) they look square pegs in round holes. I'm sure that Lambert would love to have players like Downing, Milner and Young at his disposal but he is stuck with Gabby and Weimann. Why not play Grealish and Bacuna in these positions? My guess is that on balance he prefers what Gabby and Weimann give him in robustness and solidity against the more creative play of the other pair. Hopefully Gil and another will sort this out Secondly on width. Much of the above relates to this. Also people will say Lambert has bought these players why did he not buy more width - I think that this is because a. he original planned us as a counterattacking side and width was not so much of a priority and b. width is expensive - good wide players are at a premium. I don't fully agree that modern footballers just need to be told - look at Juan Mata as a high level example of this. I don't think it is that players are not pulling their weight I just think that they are limited. I'm sure Lambert would love to rotate players but he hasnt got the quality in depth to do it "Not knowing something is never reason enough to not try and find find out what it is you don't know" - I don't fully understand what you mean here - IF you mean it's worth sacking Lambert and taking a chance on an unknown manager I don't agree. You may well mean something else by this comment though Some think that Lambert is "naive and clueless", personally I think he is a decent manager in a very very difficult situation - the worst situation here for 30+ years. We are on a very poor run and given the next couple of league games it's likely to get worse rather than better in the short term. I'm backing and supporting Lambert to put it right and to be honest as he is clearly going nowhere it would be in the best interest of the club if everyone got behind him and the team to the end of the season and then considered our options So to sum up nothing is really his fault. Are there any decisions Lambert has made that you don't agree with or can't find a reason to support it even if it hasn't worked? You've made an incorrect summing up. Why do you think Lambert perseveres with Gabby and Weimann? Pig headed ignorance? Why do you think he is not starting Grealish every game? Plain Stupidity? I'm trying to understand the reasons behind decisions. That doesnt mean I agree with every one, or that every decision is perfect, far from it but I try to understand the logic I can't beleive that you really think "reasons" is exactly the same thing as "excuses" I can understand seeing the logic but your argument seems to suggest there could be no other outcome or that he was right to make the decisions he's made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This may sound too simplistic but I don't think it is. 1. Stop using Hutton and Cissokho as creative players. Allow them to overlap on occasions but their focus should be defense. 2. Stop playing 3 very similar central midfielders. Sacrifice one and move the other one up behind the striker, If needs be drop the 2 remaining midfielders further back to cover if the pressure is on. 3. Get some ACTUAL wide players. This allows more variety of attacks, stops our fullbacks from needing to bomb on so much and actually gives us more balance defensively. 4. Play to Benteke's strengths. Provide the guy with multiple opportunities per game and he will score. I don't see how these changes are that difficult to implement. Even if for number 3 we have to drop Andi and Gabby for CNZ, Bacuna or Grealish. Just give the team some balance in every aspect both positional and tactical. Agree with a lot of that. Get some actual wide players eh. Apparently that's what we're doing but I don't know if you've noticed but we're pretty skint. Also, I don't believe Bacuna is the answer to any problem. He's as unable to do anything constructive as gabby, Andi or N'Zogbia for that matter too. Which only leaves grealish. To be fair to Lambert we had Joe Cole playing advanced when fit, those two times that's happened Hmmmm, Nice patronizing use of tone there. What are your suggestions then? I'm assuming you have some alternatives or solutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praisedmambo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This may sound too simplistic but I don't think it is. 1. Stop using Hutton and Cissokho as creative players. Allow them to overlap on occasions but their focus should be defense. 2. Stop playing 3 very similar central midfielders. Sacrifice one and move the other one up behind the striker, If needs be drop the 2 remaining midfielders further back to cover if the pressure is on. 3. Get some ACTUAL wide players. This allows more variety of attacks, stops our fullbacks from needing to bomb on so much and actually gives us more balance defensively. 4. Play to Benteke's strengths. Provide the guy with multiple opportunities per game and he will score. I don't see how these changes are that difficult to implement. Even if for number 3 we have to drop Andi and Gabby for CNZ, Bacuna or Grealish. Just give the team some balance in every aspect both positional and tactical.Agree with a lot of that.Get some actual wide players eh. Apparently that's what we're doing but I don't know if you've noticed but we're pretty skint. Also, I don't believe Bacuna is the answer to any problem. He's as unable to do anything constructive as gabby, Andi or N'Zogbia for that matter too. Which only leaves grealish. To be fair to Lambert we had Joe Cole playing advanced when fit, those two times that's happened So when we bid £8 million for cleverley there was no way we could have tried to sign a wide player? Looks like we may have dodged a bullet on that one. The thing is, who knows who we were after in the summer? I think this football manager business is a bit more complicated than many people make out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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