TRO Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 If you are trying to find an answer to Paul Lambert I would suspect if he was in charge of Athletico Madrid.....He would never have achieved the level of success Diego Simone has. taking away the cultural differences he has'nt got the "Knife between the teeth" that was so aptly described by Simone himself. Its all about managers and he ain't good enough. you can dress it up anyway you like. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 If you are trying to find an answer to Paul Lambert I would suspect if he was in charge of Athletico Madrid.....He would never have achieved the level of success Diego Simone has. taking away the cultural differences he has'nt got the "Knife between the teeth" that was so aptly described by Simone himself. Its all about managers and he ain't good enough. you can dress it up anyway you like. What a strange comparison. I'm struggling to think of many managers that would have done what Simeone has - he's probably up there with the best in the world right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 If you are trying to find an answer to Paul Lambert I would suspect if he was in charge of Athletico Madrid.....He would never have achieved the level of success Diego Simone has. taking away the cultural differences he has'nt got the "Knife between the teeth" that was so aptly described by Simone himself. Its all about managers and he ain't good enough. you can dress it up anyway you like. What a strange comparison. I'm struggling to think of many managers that would have done what Simeone has - he's probably up there with the best in the world right now. just trying to point out it can be done....from a relatively humble background. why do some folk always default to one on the worlds best managers when they have just found success.....Was Ron Saunders and Tony Barton one of the worlds best managers? You settle for low standards too easily that is my point, other managers are defying the rules to some extent.....We need to try and find one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. absolutely spot on. I'm tying to say we settle too easily for second best and don't search for a Diego Simone of our own like we did with Saunders and Barton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMcKenna Posted May 25, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. absolutely spot on. I'm tying to say we settle too easily for second best and don't search for a Diego Simone of our own like we did with Saunders and Barton. Sorry TRO totally disagree. I cannot see how you can claim we settle "for second best" Martinez turned us down and Lambert was the fans choice. As regards the distant past; as much as I respect Tony Barton's memory, it is ludicrous to use him as an example, he inherited Saunders team. He will always be a legend but few will claim he was an exceptional manager. As for Saunders. He was a relatively unknown quantity. At the time of his appointment, most fans were unimpressed and he was not perceived as "the best". Sorry but your argument doesn't make sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. absolutely spot on. I'm tying to say we settle too easily for second best and don't search for a Diego Simone of our own like we did with Saunders and Barton. Sorry TRO totally disagree. I cannot see how you can claim we settle "for second best" Martinez turned us down and Lambert was the fans choice. As regards the distant past; as much as I respect Tony Barton's memory, it is ludicrous to use him as an example, he inherited Saunders team. He will always be a legend but few will claim he was an exceptional manager. As for Saunders. He was a relatively unknown quantity. At the time of his appointment, most fans were unimpressed and he was not perceived as "the best". Sorry but your argument doesn't make sense. Sorry Mike but your response doesn't make sense to me either ...... I'm not explaining myself very well or you havn't got the gist of my point. Firstly the "second best" I am referring to is the current performance of our team, not the initial appointment,some seem to think some kind of divine intervention is going to happen and it will all come good under this manager. It didn't take the Man U fans long to say " no more mr Moyes"......we the fans are still pontificating whether we have got a good one or not as for the second point the reason Ron Saunders and Tony Barton was mentioned in Tandem was the very fact that they were unknowns which was my very point and Tony Barton was instrumental in spotting ALL the talent that Ron Saunders and Roy Mclaren so aptly Managed.....Ron won the League and Tony won the Euro cup, so inspite of the competition at that time I think it is a fair comparison.... and no they wasn't world class and neither necessarily is Simone. When I said " We settle for second best"" I meant the club staff and whilst we are on the subject does it take the fans to select a manager? I guess the fans never chose Arsene Wenger or Ron Saunders for that matter. so just in case I have still failed to get my point over......Unknowns can be a big success as Jose Mourinho was at Porto all those years ago. ps albeit,a bit of research, good interviewing techniques and a good offer is very helpful. Edited May 25, 2014 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted May 25, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2014 He joined Fulham before our first league game so I would say that is 3 managers. Nice try though! There is more than Lambert's failure to get the best out of Bent as evidence that he is not a good manager! I also think it is fair to say most of their squad under performed under these 3 managers. Judging strikers on the number of starts is IMO a fairer measure. Yes it was before the first game, I thought it was after but that is immaterial really. You say there is more 'evidence' than Bent to provide Lambert isn't a good manager, well why not stick to it rather than keep trying to defend this absurd point that he failed to get the best out of Bent given how he performed at Fulham. You can keep trotting out the 'squad under performed' line as much as you want but 3 manager didn't pick him and two gave debuts to kids rather than pick him. And yes, you would as it suits your view. Fact is though he started so few games for a reason. Its laughable, you yourself are highlighting just how few games he started but seem to be refusing to acknowledge the reason why, the reason is Bent himself. Three managers didn't manage to get him to perform, I think that would suggest Lambert got it right. I think Lambert's handling of Bent is the root cause of the problem. For whatever reason, Bent was first made captain and then ousted from the team. Then told he wasn't part of first team any more, but a member of our Bomb squad. I think this process affected Bent mentally. A goal scorer needs to be confident, even arrogant. Bent isn't any more. His level of ambition has decreased heavily, it looks like he is in a downward spiral, from where it's very difficult to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 25, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. Only nobody has implied this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Big_John_10 Posted May 25, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. Only nobody has implied this. Over the last two years its been implied many times that no manager could have done better 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamsonwoodVillan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Undoubtedly others could have done better. But after we missed out on Martinez I think Lambert was high on everyone's list. It's no good really saying in hindsight Lerner made the wrong choice. Lambert was the one a lot of fans wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. absolutely spot on. I'm tying to say we settle too easily for second best and don't search for a Diego Simone of our own like we did with Saunders and Barton. Sorry TRO totally disagree. I cannot see how you can claim we settle "for second best" Martinez turned us down and Lambert was the fans choice. As regards the distant past; as much as I respect Tony Barton's memory, it is ludicrous to use him as an example, he inherited Saunders team. He will always be a legend but few will claim he was an exceptional manager. As for Saunders. He was a relatively unknown quantity. At the time of his appointment, most fans were unimpressed and he was not perceived as "the best". Sorry but your argument doesn't make sense. Sorry Mike but your response doesn't make sense to me either ...... I'm not explaining myself very well or you havn't got the gist of my point. Firstly the "second best" I am referring to is the current performance of our team, not the initial appointment,some seem to think some kind of divine intervention is going to happen and it will all come good under this manager. It didn't take the Man U fans long to say " no more mr Moyes"......we the fans are still pontificating whether we have got a good one or not as for the second point the reason Ron Saunders and Tony Barton was mentioned in Tandem was the very fact that they were unknowns which was my very point and Tony Barton was instrumental in spotting ALL the talent that Ron Saunders and Roy Mclaren so aptly Managed.....Ron won the League and Tony won the Euro cup, so inspite of the competition at that time I think it is a fair comparison.... and no they wasn't world class and neither necessarily is Simone. When I said " We settle for second best"" I meant the club staff and whilst we are on the subject does it take the fans to select a manager? I guess the fans never chose Arsene Wenger or Ron Saunders for that matter. so just in case I have still failed to get my point over......Unknowns can be a big success as Jose Mourinho was at Porto all those years ago. ps albeit,a bit of research, good interviewing techniques and a good offer is very helpful. Moyes spent north of £55 million on players, and took over a team that won the PL at a canter the previous season. It's not a very realistic comparison. Every club wants to find a manager who can get a team to consistently finish higher than their outlay would suggest, but we can't all have them. Simeone came out of nowhere - sometimes the rare manager who actually makes a difference by their own skill does appear. If you're lucky enough to land one, great. We haven't. But the relevant question isn't 'is Paul Lambert one of the best managers in the world'? or 'could somebody do better than Lambert?', it's 'would sacking the manager in the midst of a summer of complete turmoil be obviously counterproductive?'. The answer to that question is yes, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunny*Nunny Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Another question is ' are Randy Lerner and Paul Faulkner capable of identifying and appointing a manager who can do any better than Lambert under the existing financial constraints'. I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Undoubtedly others could have done better. But after we missed out on Martinez I think Lambert was high on everyone's list. It's no good really saying in hindsight Lerner made the wrong choice. Lambert was the one a lot of fans wanted. What we have to deal with is the here and now. Lambert isn't good enough. He was worth a gamble on 2 years ago but it isn't working and IMO it is best for him to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamsonwoodVillan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Undoubtedly others could have done better. But after we missed out on Martinez I think Lambert was high on everyone's list. It's no good really saying in hindsight Lerner made the wrong choice. Lambert was the one a lot of fans wanted. What we have to deal with is the here and now. Lambert isn't good enough. He was worth a gamble on 2 years ago but it isn't working and IMO it is best for him to go. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. Not many have been trying to argue that NOBODY could have done better than Lambert. Some just believe that most managers we could realistically get wouldn't have done better. If you are trying to find an answer to Paul Lambert I would suspect if he was in charge of Athletico Madrid.....He would never have achieved the level of success Diego Simone has. taking away the cultural differences he has'nt got the "Knife between the teeth" that was so aptly described by Simone himself. Its all about managers and he ain't good enough. you can dress it up anyway you like. What a strange comparison. I'm struggling to think of many managers that would have done what Simeone has - he's probably up there with the best in the world right now. just trying to point out it can be done....from a relatively humble background. why do some folk always default to one on the worlds best managers when they have just found success.....Was Ron Saunders and Tony Barton one of the worlds best managers? You settle for low standards too easily that is my point, other managers are defying the rules to some extent.....We need to try and find one. Well yeah, generally when managers achieve great success (especially with a club like Atletico) they come to be considered among the world's best. I settle for low standards? No, I'm just not deluded enough to think that we've got much of a chance of finding someone as good as Simeone. I really don't think you do yourself much good by constantly setting impossibly high standards - it'll only lead to disappointment. I think you also need to remember that football has changed a lot since the 80s. Obviously I'd love it if someone could come along and do for us what Simeone did for Atletico but it's incredibly unlikely, especially without at least a bit of money. You have to be realistic and accept that we're not going to be challenging for the title in the near future. Edited May 25, 2014 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. Only nobody has implied this. Over the last two years its been implied many times that no manager could have done better But it hasn't, however it has been implied that it is unlikely that any manager Lerner/Faulkner would realistically hire instead of Lambert could do better. Once again, I don't really understand what is trying to be achieved by constantly bringing up what has been said over the last two years by other posters. Why does it matter? Genuinely don't understand why the argument is still going now. Edited May 25, 2014 by samjp26 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Lions_Roar Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. Only nobody has implied this. Over the last two years its been implied many times that no manager could have done better A manager that we could realistically get, I've not seen anyone say no manager. That's like saying if we replaced wiemann with messi then we wouldn't improve. No one would claim this as its pointless because its not realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Villan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Lambert hasn't been a disaster, we're still in the Premier League, he did that two years running on a small budget. The transfer funds issue is not the most constraining issue he had to deal with, it was wage restraints which stopped us getting better players in on loan. Everton got Barry, we got Holt. Large wage differences between those two I imagine. However, Lambert's tactics have been one-dimensional, too easy to work out, his man-management has been questionable (although we don't know who was actually making the decisions re: The Bomb Squad), his choice of Culverhouse & Karva turned out to be very flawed indeed and he collected less points this season than last with what, on paper, looks like a better squad. So I'll put a question out there. Do you think the same squad would have done better, with less fuss, if we'd had Tony Pullis in charge, for instance? IMO the answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Lambert hasn't been a disaster, we're still in the Premier League, he did that two years running on a small budget. The transfer funds issue is not the most constraining issue he had to deal with, it was wage restraints which stopped us getting better players in on loan. Everton got Barry, we got Holt. Large wage differences between those two I imagine. However, Lambert's tactics have been one-dimensional, too easy to work out, his man-management has been questionable (although we don't know who was actually making the decisions re: The Bomb Squad), his choice of Culverhouse & Karva turned out to be very flawed indeed and he collected less points this season than last with what, on paper, looks like a better squad. So I'll put a question out there. Do you think the same squad would have done better, with less fuss, if we'd had Tony Pullis in charge, for instance? IMO the answer is yes. my answer is No and I'm not a Lambert fan. The squad is very poor with key players injured, despite poor tactics and all the other issues at the club, avoiding relegation with this squad of players who were available was a minor success. While there might be unique managers that may have got us to mid table or above, the average premiership manager, which I include Pulis, would've probably attained roughly the same position with this poor squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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