Game of Thrones (Spoilers)

[Eames]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just don't get why they feel the need to add rape scenes. As someone on the interwebs pointed out, the Mad Max film managed to tackle sex slavery without rape scenes. It isn't handled well at all. It's just a shock for shock's sake. It's lazy writing, it's gratuitous, and it's not the first time they've done it either.

Just... ugh.

From what I've read, the books get away with scenes like that because you get the impression GRRM takes misogyny and sexual violence seriously. I don't think the show writers do. I think they think they do, but the evidence suggests that what drives their writing is a desire to shock more than anything.

4 episodes to redeem themselves, or I'll just pack it in and read the books and hope for the best.

A thousand times this.

I have no idea why they included that scene. It doesn't have a character development function, it adds very little to the plot beyond the

snapping Theon out of his Reek persona

and actually removes any agency they had been building with Sansa for the last few episodes. Its there solely for shock value in a pathetic attempt to be "edgy"

We know Ramsey is an arsehole. Season 3 of solid torture and emasculating Theon taught us that. We know Sansa gets **** over - a lot. We know Theon is too terrified of Ramsey to intervene. Even the obvious best case scenario pay off

Sansa kills Ramsey during a subsequent rape attempt dropping the line "The North Remembers" in a merging of her and the Lady Stoneheart character

didn't require this additional motivation.

I really thought with the opportunities that the TV has to be more efficient over AFFC they'd have done a better job than what they've served up so far. This is easily the worst season of the show.

I thought the scene was handled well, with a little horror as it was possible to show. Obviously unpleasant, but the worst appeared off camera, and as someone that knew a scene like that was coming, then I think we got off very lightly.

I agree that we know from the books that it could have been worse that is hardly a reason to show it. "we could have included the dog sex - so think yourselves lucky you just got an unnecessary rape scene hardly justifies its inclusion.

But it wasn't unnecessary, it was important for the mind sets of all three characters. I understand rape seems to be on a pedestal compared to other horrors but obviously Benioff and Weiss feel this way too by having it off camera.

Is it though? Like I said - we know Ramsey is an arse, we know Sansa gets **** over by people more powerful than her. I accept it develops Theon/Reek but not enough for me to offset the damage it does to Sansa's portrayal in the show.

How else are they meant to show Sansa is having a terrible time there? The last couple of episodes Ramsey has been more courteous, especially when with Sansa, it needed to show that he's still a full on dick and it did that with minimal on camera horror.

 

I'd question why they need to.

 

Look at all the things the Bolton's have done to her family. There is enough motivation right there for her sticking a knife in his neck - THAT could also form the event that returns Theon to his wits.....it didn't have to be by as CED says "stripping her of all agency" for a made up unnecessary rape scene. 

 

How it was shot is irrelevant. Technically it was well executed and yes wasn't graphic. That's not my problem with it. 

[Stevo985]

I think the difference appears to be a deviation from the books.

 

Those who have read them think that's a bad deviation because the book does it better.

 

Those of us who haven't read it don't see it as a bad deviation because we don't know any better.

To me, knowing nothing about the books, I don't see how else they could have handled that scene if it's part of the plot.

 

I think what I'm hearing is that it's NOT part of the plot, and they've just put it into the TV show?

Edited May 19, 2015 by Stevo985

[Wainy316]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just don't get why they feel the need to add rape scenes. As someone on the interwebs pointed out, the Mad Max film managed to tackle sex slavery without rape scenes. It isn't handled well at all. It's just a shock for shock's sake. It's lazy writing, it's gratuitous, and it's not the first time they've done it either.

Just... ugh.

From what I've read, the books get away with scenes like that because you get the impression GRRM takes misogyny and sexual violence seriously. I don't think the show writers do. I think they think they do, but the evidence suggests that what drives their writing is a desire to shock more than anything.

4 episodes to redeem themselves, or I'll just pack it in and read the books and hope for the best.

A thousand times this.

I have no idea why they included that scene. It doesn't have a character development function, it adds very little to the plot beyond the

snapping Theon out of his Reek persona

and actually removes any agency they had been building with Sansa for the last few episodes. Its there solely for shock value in a pathetic attempt to be "edgy"

We know Ramsey is an arsehole. Season 3 of solid torture and emasculating Theon taught us that. We know Sansa gets **** over - a lot. We know Theon is too terrified of Ramsey to intervene. Even the obvious best case scenario pay off

Sansa kills Ramsey during a subsequent rape attempt dropping the line "The North Remembers" in a merging of her and the Lady Stoneheart character

didn't require this additional motivation.

I really thought with the opportunities that the TV has to be more efficient over AFFC they'd have done a better job than what they've served up so far. This is easily the worst season of the show.

I thought the scene was handled well, with a little horror as it was possible to show. Obviously unpleasant, but the worst appeared off camera, and as someone that knew a scene like that was coming, then I think we got off very lightly.

I agree that we know from the books that it could have been worse that is hardly a reason to show it. "we could have included the dog sex - so think yourselves lucky you just got an unnecessary rape scene hardly justifies its inclusion.

But it wasn't unnecessary, it was important for the mind sets of all three characters. I understand rape seems to be on a pedestal compared to other horrors but obviously Benioff and Weiss feel this way too by having it off camera.

Is it though? Like I said - we know Ramsey is an arse, we know Sansa gets **** over by people more powerful than her. I accept it develops Theon/Reek but not enough for me to offset the damage it does to Sansa's portrayal in the show.

How else are they meant to show Sansa is having a terrible time there? The last couple of episodes Ramsey has been more courteous, especially when with Sansa, it needed to show that he's still a full on dick and it did that with minimal on camera horror.

 

I'd question why they need to.

 

Look at all the things the Bolton's have done to her family. There is enough motivation right there for her sticking a knife in his neck - THAT could also form the event that returns Theon to his wits.....it didn't have to be by as CED says "stripping her of all agency" for a made up unnecessary rape scene. 

 

How it was shot is irrelevant. Technically it was well executed and yes wasn't graphic. That's not my problem with it. 

 

 

 

So is your problem simply the fact that it's rape?

[Eames]

I think the difference appears to be a deviation from the books.

 

Those who have read them think that's a bad deviation because the book does it better.

 

Those of us who haven't read it don't see it as a bad deviation because we don't know any better.

To me, knowing nothing about the books, I don't see how else they could have handled that scene if it's part of the plot.

 

I think what I'm hearing is that it's NOT part of the plot, and they've just put it into the TV show?

Nail. Head. 

[Wainy316]

I think the difference appears to be a deviation from the books.

 

Those who have read them think that's a bad deviation because the book does it better.

 

Those of us who haven't read it don't see it as a bad deviation because we don't know any better.

To me, knowing nothing about the books, I don't see how else they could have handled that scene if it's part of the plot.

 

I think what I'm hearing is that it's NOT part of the plot, and they've just put it into the TV show?

 

 

No trust me, this particular scene would have been unfilmable, which is why I think it's commendable they managed get across the point or something similar, without having to go into very horrific territory.

 

It should be noted that it is not Sansa this happens to in the books.

[StefanAVFC]

 Focusing the shot on Theon isn't meant to take away from what's happening to Sansa. It's showing that he's mentally breaking through the "Reek" persona. The camera doesn't have to be on Sansa for us to know how she's reacting, but if we don't see Theon we wouldn't know that he's overcoming Ramsey's conditioning of him.

Edited May 19, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[Eames]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just don't get why they feel the need to add rape scenes. As someone on the interwebs pointed out, the Mad Max film managed to tackle sex slavery without rape scenes. It isn't handled well at all. It's just a shock for shock's sake. It's lazy writing, it's gratuitous, and it's not the first time they've done it either.

Just... ugh.

From what I've read, the books get away with scenes like that because you get the impression GRRM takes misogyny and sexual violence seriously. I don't think the show writers do. I think they think they do, but the evidence suggests that what drives their writing is a desire to shock more than anything.

4 episodes to redeem themselves, or I'll just pack it in and read the books and hope for the best.

A thousand times this.

I have no idea why they included that scene. It doesn't have a character development function, it adds very little to the plot beyond the

snapping Theon out of his Reek persona

and actually removes any agency they had been building with Sansa for the last few episodes. Its there solely for shock value in a pathetic attempt to be "edgy"

We know Ramsey is an arsehole. Season 3 of solid torture and emasculating Theon taught us that. We know Sansa gets **** over - a lot. We know Theon is too terrified of Ramsey to intervene. Even the obvious best case scenario pay off

Sansa kills Ramsey during a subsequent rape attempt dropping the line "The North Remembers" in a merging of her and the Lady Stoneheart character

didn't require this additional motivation.

I really thought with the opportunities that the TV has to be more efficient over AFFC they'd have done a better job than what they've served up so far. This is easily the worst season of the show.

I thought the scene was handled well, with a little horror as it was possible to show. Obviously unpleasant, but the worst appeared off camera, and as someone that knew a scene like that was coming, then I think we got off very lightly.

I agree that we know from the books that it could have been worse that is hardly a reason to show it. "we could have included the dog sex - so think yourselves lucky you just got an unnecessary rape scene hardly justifies its inclusion.

But it wasn't unnecessary, it was important for the mind sets of all three characters. I understand rape seems to be on a pedestal compared to other horrors but obviously Benioff and Weiss feel this way too by having it off camera.

Is it though? Like I said - we know Ramsey is an arse, we know Sansa gets **** over by people more powerful than her. I accept it develops Theon/Reek but not enough for me to offset the damage it does to Sansa's portrayal in the show.

How else are they meant to show Sansa is having a terrible time there? The last couple of episodes Ramsey has been more courteous, especially when with Sansa, it needed to show that he's still a full on dick and it did that with minimal on camera horror.

 

I'd question why they need to.

 

Look at all the things the Bolton's have done to her family. There is enough motivation right there for her sticking a knife in his neck - THAT could also form the event that returns Theon to his wits.....it didn't have to be by as CED says "stripping her of all agency" for a made up unnecessary rape scene. 

 

How it was shot is irrelevant. Technically it was well executed and yes wasn't graphic. That's not my problem with it. 

 

 

 

So is your problem simply the fact that it's rape?

 

No. 

 

Its the fact that the show has spent some of S4 and all of the current S5 episodes developing Sansa as an independent effective character - aware of her own mind and able to act on her own for her own motives. They have completely undermined that work for very little benefit beyond having a controversial moment. We know Ramsey is an arse. Sansa has sufficient motive to kill him already without this pantomine "oooh what a bastard look what he's like" nonsense. 

[Eames]

 

I think the difference appears to be a deviation from the books.

 

Those who have read them think that's a bad deviation because the book does it better.

 

Those of us who haven't read it don't see it as a bad deviation because we don't know any better.

To me, knowing nothing about the books, I don't see how else they could have handled that scene if it's part of the plot.

 

I think what I'm hearing is that it's NOT part of the plot, and they've just put it into the TV show?

 

 

No trust me, this particular scene would have been unfilmable, which is why I think it's commendable they managed get across the point or something similar, without having to go into very horrific territory.

 

It should be noted that it is not Sansa this happens to in the books.

 

Exactly. They've been happy to change the books to suit themselves all the way along and now all of a sudden there's a bit a rape it has to be included? Rubbish. 

[Wainy316]

 

 

I think the difference appears to be a deviation from the books.

 

Those who have read them think that's a bad deviation because the book does it better.

 

Those of us who haven't read it don't see it as a bad deviation because we don't know any better.

To me, knowing nothing about the books, I don't see how else they could have handled that scene if it's part of the plot.

 

I think what I'm hearing is that it's NOT part of the plot, and they've just put it into the TV show?

 

 

No trust me, this particular scene would have been unfilmable, which is why I think it's commendable they managed get across the point or something similar, without having to go into very horrific territory.

 

It should be noted that it is not Sansa this happens to in the books.

 

Exactly. They've been happy to change the books to suit themselves all the way along and now all of a sudden there's a bit a rape it has to be included? Rubbish. 

 

 

Well yeah, Sansa shouldn't be there in the first place they have down scaled Westeros to about the size of Tamworth (eg. Brienne bumping into both Arya and Sansa in the space of an episode), but I still think the scene, handled with minimal graphic detail has furthered all three characters narrative.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Sansa has enough reason to dislike the Boltons. We know Ramsay is a shit - he spent a whole season torturing a dude, ffs. If anything, as I said, it was added to develop Theon/Reek and that is part of the problem: it reduced Sansa to someone to be raped to further someone's plot. Poor, lazy writing that undermined the season's worth of effort they put into making Sansa something other than a victim.

Edited May 19, 2015 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[Meath_Villan]

I'm fairly sure GOT final season will be great as well ...but at the min it's all filla no thrilla

[ender4]

Worst season so far.

 

I didn't have a problem with the rape scene, they didn't show anything, and i can see where it leads with Theon.

Two rape scenes in 5 seasons, one of which may have been consentual anyway, and everyone complains about them. 

 

The whole show is full of nudity, violence and horrific deeds - i didn't find this anymore horrific than anything else.

 

 

I haven't read the books, and it seems to me that most of the people unhappy with this scene are people who have read the book and expected it to play out differently.

[Zatman]

was a kid thrown out the window in episode 1 and was no controversy

[Ads]

I don't agree that the rape was unnecessary.

There are two plot devices in operation, rather than the one in the book. In the book, Theon being forced to sexually assault Jeyne Poole, who Sansa is standing in for, is what ultimately gets him to re-grow some nads.

If Sansa is also the stand in for Stoneheart, then she needs some skin in the game. She's one of the few Starks to have avoided personal violence and I would imagine this sets up for a culmination of Sansa stabbing the life out of Ramsay, and his clingy bit on the side (who he raped in the last episode), while not clouding your opinion of Sansa.

[Eames]

I don't agree that the rape was unnecessary.

There are two plot devices in operation, rather than the one in the book. In the book, Theon being forced to sexually assault Jeyne Poole, who Sansa is standing in for, is what ultimately gets him to re-grow some nads.

If Sansa is also the stand in for Stoneheart, then she needs some skin in the game. She's one of the few Starks to have avoided personal violence and I would imagine this sets up for a culmination of Sansa stabbing the life out of Ramsay, and his clingy bit on the side (who he raped in the last episode), while not clouding your opinion of Sansa.

I can't agree Sansa needs to get raped to give her some motivation to kill Ramsey. The Boltons murdered her mother and brother in cold blood. They are in cahoots with the Lannisters who killed her father - that surely is enough to give Ramsey a good shanking.

[ender4]

was a kid thrown out the window in episode 1 and was no controversy

 

yes agreed.

 

which is worse - trying to kill a child by throwing him out of a window, or a rape?

[ender4]

were there no boobs in the whole episode   

[Eames]

was a kid thrown out the window in episode 1 and was no controversy

 

yes agreed.

 

which is worse - trying to kill a child by throwing him out of a window, or a rape?

I don't know. Two deviants doing something horrible to hide their crimes that is an essential early plot development or a cyncially inserted scene detrimental to character development and large chunks of the plot of previous episodes.

You decide.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

 

was a kid thrown out the window in episode 1 and was no controversy

 

yes agreed.

 

which is worse - trying to kill a child by throwing him out of a window, or a rape?

 

 

I see this argument a lot, and it's nonsense. Generally if someone is murdered, or someone attempts a murder, it is reported and dealt with (in most cases). We, as most societies do, take murder quite seriously. Child murder even more so. Unfortunately rape, still, is not taken seriously enough. It is generally under-reported and we live in a culture in which, for example, far too many people readily blame the victim ('she was asking for it dressed like that' etc) or you get paranoid men debating the vagaries of 'consent' (that's a pile of bollocks too, but we won't get into that). That is changing, slowly, but it doesn't change the fact that rape is a complex issue (in terms of how it is dealt with and represented in film and tv etc; the crime itself, like murder, is fairly clear cut) and it deserves to be treated with that in mind. The GoT writers, I believe, don't appreciate that and use rape as a plot device because they've no other ideas and it gets people talking.

Edited May 19, 2015 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

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I'm not disagreeing that the conviction rates for rape should be significantly higher. When I was doing my academic training it was 16%, way below the average of other offences.

But I don't see why that impacts on he merrits of including the scene. Ramsey is a rapist, we have seen him do it before, it sailed close to the source material and it furthers three plots. I don't think they included it purely for shock value; it could have been a lot more gratuitous and they've done that before.