What do you drive?

[MakemineVanilla]

I was watching a video on Guy Martin not long ago and as we all know he's a lorry mechanic.

He said that to meet emission regulations lorries now use more fuel.

So it is possible that there may be a cost in fuel efficiency when NOx levels are reduced.

At some point someone will identify the forces which led to the present outcome.

 

[villakram]

I was watching a video on Guy Martin not long ago and as we all know he's a lorry mechanic.

He said that to meet emission regulations lorries now use more fuel.

So it is possible that there may be a cost in fuel efficiency when NOx levels are reduced.

At some point someone will identify the forces which led to the present outcome.

 

-->  $  <--

same as it ever was!

[turnbull]

Most if not all manufacturers have "horror stories", it;s just that some are more horrific than others.

And some are very well hidden.

[turnbull]

Sorry to double post, but I'm picking this up next week 

 

 

 

[AVFC_Hitz]

Sorry to double post, but I'm picking this up next week 

 

 

 

How many pennies to the swede does that go?

[leviramsey]

I remember being impressed with all of the Toyota recalls because they really didn't have to. Loads of manufacturers have issues that they choose not to recall as it's not worth their cost. Toyota don't mess about and just recall.

To me it's a positive. It's one of the reasons I chose a Toyota over anything else. They have integrity unlike lots of other car makers.

They only recently got that religion.  For decades prior (at least in the US) their policy was to never recall.  They'd quietly tell the dealers to fix things without telling the owners (tough luck if you didn't take the car to the dealer for service).  In one notable case, that of the Tacoma, it was discovered that the frames weren't being adequately treated to prevent corrosion and made the decision to not fix the manufacturing process but told dealers to, if the truck was showing early enough signs of frame corrosion to offer to buy the truck back while they continued manufacturing as before (indeed, they did a stem-to-stern redesign in this period without fixing it).  My wife (back in her lesbian days) got snared in that one: she bought her Tacoma after five years of these shenanigans and two years later the truck had rusted through (in fairness, she was living in Down East Maine).

Edited September 24, 2015 by leviramsey

[leviramsey]

The big question for owners in the US of these is whether, in the various places where cars (including diesels) have to pass emissions tests regularly to remain street-legal, the testing authorities are going to say, "we can't test these (and thus, when the previous tests expire, your car is undriveable on public roads) unless the owner proves they've had the fixes done".  In most of the places that have emissions testing, it's an every other year thing (in California, it doesn't kick in until the car is 6 years old), or in a few it's whenever the car is registered by a new owner.  With VW's buyer demographics, most of them live in places covered by these requirements.  I think it's quite likely that owners will be forced to either have the fix (which will most likely, as mentioned, be ECU reprogramming which makes the cars essentially undriveable (e.g. inadequate acceleration to freeway speeds) and/or gives them dramatically reduced fuel economy or to sell their car to someone where diesels aren't subject to emissions tests.  Either of those options essentially kills the resale market for these cars.

If this sort of thing comes to pass, VW will probably end up buying back most of these half-million cars: they'll probably end up offering retail price for the car in "Excellent" condition regardless of the actual condition.  Considering that for a 2012 Jetta TDI, that's $16,000-ish, we're probably looking at $5 billion right there.  They may also try to keep customers loyal by saying "We'll give you $16,000 cash or give you a $24,000 voucher good at any Volkswagen/Audi dealer for any new car on the lot."  There's also the lease issue: because up until now the TDI's (partially owing to their uniqueness) had held up pretty well in resale value, VW has been aggressive in offering lease deals.  They'll probably lose another billion or so on the resale values becoming so damaged.

There's a reason VW debt is probably in imminent danger of a downgrade to junk status: the prospect of losing multiple years of profits in one fell swoop.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see VW end up as an effective joint venture between Fiat Chrysler and Porsche....

[turnbull]

Sorry to double post, but I'm picking this up next week 

 

 

 

 

 

How many pennies to the swede does that go?

I think it runs on Ikea hot dogs and Kopparberg.

[BOF]

And not that it comes as any surprise whatsoever, but it has now been confirmed that European VW diesels also have the eletrickery installed.

[villakram]

oh looky here, how very surprising...

"Leaked documents seen by the Guardian show the three countries lobbied the European commission to keep loopholes in car tests that would increase real world carbon dioxide emissions by 14% above those claimed."

That would be blighty, frogland and ze germans!

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal

It appears rules are only for us regular folk... same as it ever was!

 

 

 

 

[Stevo985]

JLR are good boys it turns out. Phew!

[BOF]

That is brilliant villakram   You just couldn't make it up.  It also widens the possibility (and I stress the 'possibility') that this kind of tampering is not only a lot more wide-spread in the industry than just VAG but that it's a lot more well-known at government level too.

[Genie]

There is an incredible  amount of recalling that goes on by all manufacturers but majority never makes the news. Check out the DVLA website for a list per model!

https://www.gov.uk/check-if-a-vehicle-has-been-recalled

There are lots of types too, often they are flagged to the dealers to do when the car comes in for a service and kept very hush hush. Or a very polite person from the local dealership will call asking if you could pop in when convenient to just check something minor they don't want to bore you with the details about. They could even said a chap to collect and return if it was more convenient. 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

That is brilliant villakram   You just couldn't make it up.  It also widens the possibility (and I stress the 'possibility') that this kind of tampering is not only a lot more wide-spread in the industry than just VAG but that it's a lot more well-known at government level too.

Manufacturers share the same component suppliers and therefore engine management systems will be supplied by a third party.

My guess is that cheating on emissions is like athletes taking drugs; if you don't cheat you can't compete. 

[Genie]

Most manufacturers have already released statements stating they absolutely do not take part in these practices. Looking like VW group are on their own here.

http://news.sky.com/story/1558200/vw-emissions-scandal-motor-industry-reaction

[Stevo985]

JLR don't cheat (well, not this particular test at least!)

[MakemineVanilla]

I think it is amusing the way it seems such a characteristically German solution.

They don't just want to find some half-arsed way around the problem they get the engineers to finesse it with some fancy solution.

I mean, injecting urea into the exhaust gases is just taking the piss. 

 

Edited September 24, 2015 by MakemineVanilla

[MakemineVanilla]

I was watching a video on Guy Martin not long ago and as we all know he's a lorry mechanic.

He said that to meet emission regulations lorries now use more fuel.

So it is possible that there may be a cost in fuel efficiency when NOx levels are reduced.

At some point someone will identify the forces which led to the present outcome.

 

I have just read in the Times that diesel engines consume 5% more fuel when they are adjusted to comply with NOx limits.

So the cheating is the result of trying to increase fuel economy for their customers.

The article says it will cost drivers of diesel cars 'up to £100 a year' in extra fuel costs, when they are adjusted to comply.

This definitely changes the moral spin of the story but the media are absolutely determined to convert an issue about legality in California into a global morality tale. 

 

[HanoiVillan]

I was watching a video on Guy Martin not long ago and as we all know he's a lorry mechanic.

He said that to meet emission regulations lorries now use more fuel.

So it is possible that there may be a cost in fuel efficiency when NOx levels are reduced.

At some point someone will identify the forces which led to the present outcome.

 

I have just read in the Times that diesel engines consume 5% more fuel when they are adjusted to comply with NOx limits.

So the cheating is the result of trying to increase fuel economy for their customers.[1]

The article says it will cost drivers of diesel cars 'up to £100 a year' in extra fuel costs, when they are adjusted to comply.

This definitely changes the moral spin of the story but the media are absolutely determined to convert an issue about legality in California into a global morality tale. [2]

 

1 - That's the surface reason - the deeper point is that the cheating is the result of trying to sell more cars. Nobody put a gun to their heads and told them to advertise cars for sale based on fuel efficiency that they couldn't actually provide without breaking regulations. That was VW's choice. The regulations weren't a mystery. 

2 - The point is that carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide aren't the only harmful pollutants that can come out of an exhaust pipe. The regulators would argue, with some justification, that some extra carbon is a practical trade-off for less NOx. 

[darrenm]

Yeah carbon dioxide kills the planet, everything that comes out of a diesel's exhaust pipe kills everything living on the planet.

We need to drive adoption of EV or hybrids if range is a concern. And short journeys should be made using walking or cycling.

Also, a lot more pressure should be put on companies to provide and encourage home working. Way too many people drive a long way to go and sit at a computer.