Manchester United

[tom_avfc]

3 minutes ago, BOF said:

I'm seeing a lot more criticism of Mourinho than I am of Pep this morning.  This despite United going away from home and getting a good result against a very dangerous team, where a defeat would have been extremely damaging to their top 4 ambitions, where the other manager was at home with a glorious chance to put a nail in a coffin and failed to beat a direct rival.

I genuinely think people hold Mourinho to some ridiculous standard while letting almost everyone else, including the second coming over at Eastlands, away with murder.

Ultimately I think it comes down to personality.  People don't like Mourinho.  So people will give him very little leeway and will look for the negatives.  The reaction to last night's game and to the result is a small but fairly typical example of that.

I think it's the style of football more than anything that people will hammer Mourinho with. Rightly or wrongly people will look at the amount of money United have spent and see 30% possession and 3 shots as unacceptable.

I'm with you though to be fair. Job well done and a solid point. Personality wise I don't see Mourinho as any worse than Guardiola, who has been petulant at best this season, but he does seem to be hated by most for one reason or another.

[bobzy]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

I'm seeing a lot more criticism of Mourinho than I am of Pep this morning.  This despite United going away from home and getting a good result against a very dangerous team, where a defeat would have been extremely damaging to their top 4 ambitions, where the other manager was at home with a glorious chance to put a nail in a coffin and failed to beat a direct rival.

I genuinely think people hold Mourinho to some ridiculous standard while letting almost everyone else, including the second coming over at Eastlands, away with murder.

Ultimately I think it comes down to personality.  People don't like Mourinho.  So people will give him very little leeway and will look for the negatives.  The reaction to last night's game and to the result is a small but fairly typical example of that.

Rightly so that you're seeing more criticism of Mourinho, for me.

He's an incredibly defensive-minded manager in big games - rarely has an interest in winning but, when it happens, is lauded for his tactical genius.  They've gone to their rivals and had 3 shots all game - managing the lowest possession total for any Man Utd side since Opta started recording possession stats (apparently).  But it worked for what he wanted to achieve.  Man Utd have gone to Man City and shut them out.  No attempt to win the game whatsoever.

It worked.  They got the draw they wanted and carry on their unbeaten run.  It's **** dull, though.  That's why he's getting criticised.

[rodders0223]

As a critic of Jose I am not going to have a dig for last night, that is what you do when you are away to a very strong team and your rivals. You keep it tight away and win your home games. The only issue is  they haven't won nearly enough home games to 'get away with it.'

[BOF]

If United, with the players currently available to them, had gone to the Etihad last night and gone toe to toe with that City team they'd have been absolutely mullered and Jose would rightly look an idiot.  But they didn't.  They got an unlikely point and Mourinho is the one getting stick   Are Pep's suits made of teflon?

[bobzy]

22 minutes ago, BOF said:

If United, with the players currently available to them, had gone to the Etihad last night and gone toe to toe with that City team they'd have been absolutely mullered and Jose would rightly look an idiot.  But they didn't.  They got an unlikely point and Mourinho is the one getting stick   Are Pep's suits made of teflon?

They're playing catch up with a handful of games left, and City's run-in is amazing (on paper).  They should've had a go.

[BOF]

4 minutes ago, bobzy said:

They're playing catch up with a handful of games left, and City's run-in is amazing (on paper).  They should've had a go.

It was their 8th game in April and they've 8 (maybe 9) more to come !! In comparison Liverpool have 4.  And United were missing Pogba, Zlatan, Rojo, Jones, Smalling and Mata.  City were missing Silva.  As I say, the criticism doesn't make any sense when circumstances are genuinely taken into account.

[bobzy]

28 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

I think it's the style of football more than anything that people will hammer Mourinho with. Rightly or wrongly people will look at the amount of money United have spent and see 30% possession and 3 shots as unacceptable.

I'm with you though to be fair. Job well done and a solid point. Personality wise I don't see Mourinho as any worse than Guardiola, who has been petulant at best this season, but he does seem to be hated by most for one reason or another.

Yeah, I definitely dislike Mourinho as a person.

I accept that it may well be a facade used to dupe the media and general public whilst, behind the scenes, he's a charming, charismatic, caring sole who the players love.  I totally accept that may be the case.  However, that's not the the manager I see.

[kurtsimonw]

20 minutes ago, BOF said:

If United, with the players currently available to them, had gone to the Etihad last night and gone toe to toe with that City team they'd have been absolutely mullered and Jose would rightly look an idiot.  But they didn't.  They got an unlikely point and Mourinho is the one getting stick   Are Pep's suits made of teflon?

You don't try and take a better side head on. It might work every now and then, but it usually won't and you could get a good hammering too. Jose took lessons from his first Clasico, why try and outplay a better side, for no other reason that the pretentious "for the good of the sport"? City have a better playing staff, United are also without both Ibra and Mata, it would've been madness to try and take on City in an open game. 

Jose's record against the current top 7 isn't exceptional this season. 

Won 3, drew 6, lost 3.

Though, compare it to Pep. 

Won 2, drew 5, lost 7.

He inherited a lesser squad, spent less money, has won a trophy, potentially a second, sits a sole point behind. Yet Jose is crap and Pep is God. 

[bobzy]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

It was their 8th game in April and they've 8 (maybe 9) more to come !! and they were missing Pogba, Zlatan, Rojo, Jones, Smalling and Mata.  City were missing Silva.  As I say, the criticism doesn't make any sense when circumstances are genuinely taken into account.

That's missing personnel and nothing to do with going for a win.  Huddersfield reserves played against a strong Man City side and caused them more problems than a Man Utd side filled with £100m's worth of talent.

Man Utd aren't ahead of Man City in the table.  If they're concentrating solely on winning the Europa League and this was a save face exercise, then fine.  Mourinho getting more criticism than Guardiola, after this one game, is completely fair.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, kurtsimonw said:

You don't try and take a better side head on. It might work every now and then, but it usually won't and you could get a good hammering too. Jose took lessons from his first Clasico, why try and outplay a better side, for no other reason that the pretentious "for the good of the sport"? City have a better playing staff, United are also without both Ibra and Mata, it would've been madness to try and take on City in an open game. 

Jose's record against the current top 7 isn't exceptional this season. 

Won 3, drew 6, lost 3.

Though, compare it to Pep. 

Won 2, drew 5, lost 7.

He inherited a lesser squad, spent less money, has won a trophy, potentially a second, sits a sole point behind. Yet Jose is crap and Pep is God. 

It's interesting that you seem to hold this view.  I cannot ever remember anyone saying anything of the like.

[BOF]

Just now, bobzy said:

That's missing personnel and nothing to do with going for a win.

Way to completely ignore the first sentence which was the most important part of the post Let's leave it there shall we. 

[bobzy]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

Way to completely ignore the first sentence which was the most important part of the post Let's leave it there shall we. 

I mean, having 2 more games in a month will have some impact, I'm sure.  Inability to move?  I don't know.

 

Edit:  By the way, in all of this I haven't said Jose has been terrible.  He got the result he wanted.  I just understand why he'd get more criticism after the game.

Edited April 28, 2017 by bobzy

[BOF]

23 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I mean, having 2 more games in a month will have some impact, I'm sure.  Inability to move?  I don't know.

 

Edit:  By the way, in all of this I haven't said Jose has been terrible.  He got the result he wanted.  I just understand why he'd get more criticism after the game.

My point was that it was Jose managing his team and adapting much better to his quite incredible circumstances including what is yet to come.  Eight games in 27 days with another one (v Swansea) midday Sunday making it 9 in the month.  Add to that the 8 (or 9 with EL final) still to come.  Add in the injuries and what was an extremely slow midfield (Fellaini, Carrick & Herrera ...).  That decimated squad has to somehow try and come top 4 and win the EL.

All of that and he went to the backyard of the second coming and stole a point off him that he really shouldn't have got, all things being equal.  He should be getting lauded for mugging everyone's favourite genius.

I see very little acknowledgement for any of the above extenuating factors from his detractors.  It's usually just met with a 'yeah but ...' which makes me think the whole thing is less of an impartial discussion, and more a standard internet argument

[bobzy]

26 minutes ago, BOF said:

I see very little acknowledgement for any of the above extenuating factors from his detractors.  It's usually just met with a 'yeah but ...' which makes me think the whole thing is less of an impartial discussion, and more a standard internet argument

Says someone sarcastically calling Guardiola "the second coming" and "everyone's favourite genius"

[BOF]

4 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Says someone sarcastically calling Guardiola "the second coming" and "everyone's favourite genius"

You don't see where I might be getting that impression then?  As in literally the fall-out (or lack thereof) from last night's match?

In fact this whole discussion kinda proves my point about the remarkable non-stickiness of Guardiola.  So yes, you could be forgiven for thinking he is everyone's favourite genius.  Until you look at his results and the resources at his disposal.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

You don't see where I might be getting that impression then?  As in literally the fall-out (or lack thereof) from last night's match?

In fact this whole discussion kinda proves my point about the remarkable non-stickiness of Guardiola.  So yes, you could be forgiven for thinking he is everyone's favourite genius.  Until you look at his results and the resources at his disposal.

I see no praise for Guardiola.  I might have missed it all.

 

Edit:  Also, seriously, after last night's game... what criticism should Guardiola be getting?  I'm intrigued.

Edited April 28, 2017 by bobzy

[BOF]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

I see no praise for Guardiola.  I might have missed it all.

Edit:  Also, seriously, after last night's game... what criticism should Guardiola be getting?  I'm intrigued.

Both of these have been comprehensively and explicitly answered by me further up this conversation.

[bobzy]

Just now, BOF said:

Both of these have been comprehensively and explicitly answered by me further up this conversation.

Nope - you've just talked about why Mourinho should get no criticism (injured squad, away from home, lots of games) and that Guardiola the "second coming" is "Teflon" for getting none.

[BOF]

If you still honestly have those questions after our chat then as I say, we'll leave it there.  The answers are above, and more than what you've just posted.

[sharkyvilla]

I think people have rightly made their mind up with Jose for the last decade at least, rather than last night's game.  I really can't see any redeeming features in his football and the way he conducts himself and wish he'd never come back to England.  That's not to say a lot of people haven't woken up to Guardiola's antics this season, perhaps having only seen the style of play at Barca and Bayern and not so much his rudeness and lack of plan B.