The Randy Lerner thread

[Pelle]

Well, I'd like to hear anyone claiming that Beye contributed to our three 6th finishes. Or Shorey. Or the former spuds player who now plays for Swansea, though he probably wasn't on any high wages to speak of. And a few more.

Do you think every man city player in thier squad contributed to their league victory?

Do you think every spurs player in their squad is contributing to this season?

This ridiculous judgment on certain areas is laughable.

 

Well, it was you who stated that it just came down to whether we as fans thought they were good enough, and I just said that I wanted anyone to claim that these mentioned players actually contributed to anything good. Meaning, it maybe isn't just down to what some think but what is more or less actual facts.

[maqroll]

Well he is here for tomorrows game.

The game better go well, or Lerner's in for a rough afternoon

[Big_John_10]

So I don't know what point your actually trying to make

Well we were able to hand out long term big money deals after he left. If we were in that much of a mess surely that couldn't have happened.

Funnily enough 2 years after MoN left and 2 more years of pissing money away resulted in lambert having low wages to play with.

Clearly MoN's fault though.

[SikhInTrinity]

I thought you said the discussion wasn't about quality? I agree the players purchased in the past two years haven't been good enough either however, MON left us with a huge wage bill which we're just trying to clear now.

[Condimentalist]

Lerner at training today

 

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3110042,00.html

 

Who is the guy on the left?

[Didiersix]

Lerner at training today

 

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3110042,00.html

 

Who is the guy on the left?

Brian Doogan, head of media at Villa

[Big_John_10]

MON left us with a huge wage bill which we're just trying to clear now.

But we were able to sign players on long term big money deals after he left.

It's only after another 2 years of pissing money away which has now resulted in serious wage cuts that lambert needs to work with.

If we were that much of a mess surely we'd have seen wage cuts similar to what we're seeing now.

Since MON left we've paid £16 million in compensation to managers and paid big money contracts to new players.

I mean people moan about MoN signing players on wages that aren't deserved and who don't contribute.

Makoun

Nzogbia

Hutton

Given

Ireland

Bent

Everything people blame MoN for continued for another 2 years after he left? How did that happen if it was all MoN's fault?

[Pelle]

You forgot to mention Pires. Makoun and Hutton did f**k all for us, there's no way denying that. Given I think saved us a couple of times last season. Ireland is bordering on doing f**k all for us, but then we beat chelsea at SB. Zog is also bordering on that, but he's done some good things this season, like a very good freekick against wham. Poor George and Andrew. Bent definetly helped keeping us up.

 

But I know what you mean, most of them were probably on high wages. Though, I doubt Makouns wages was that high, and I think Hutton is on lower wages than Luke Young was.

[blandy]

MON left us with a huge wage bill which we're just trying to clear now.

But we were able to sign players on long term big money deals after he left.

It's only after another 2 years of pissing money away which has now resulted in serious wage cuts that lambert needs to work with.

If we were that much of a mess surely we'd have seen wage cuts similar to what we're seeing now.

Since MON left we've paid £16 million in compensation to managers and paid big money contracts to new players.

I mean people moan about MoN signing players on wages that aren't deserved and who don't contribute.

Makoun

Nzogbia

Hutton

Given

Ireland

Bent

Everything people blame MoN for continued for another 2 years after he left? How did that happen if it was all MoN's fault?

Not a soul has said "it's all MO'N's fault" - instead of imagining what you think people say, why not try reading what they actually say? - which is broadly that he partly carries some responsibility. When the wages shot up from 50 to 70 million, in one summer, that was because he selected players to sign and was partly involved in setting or agreeing wages for them over 4 and 5 year contracts.

Some of these buys were extremely poor value - no resale value, performed poorly, but were a burden not asset for the club. Yes other managers also made bad buys, and subsequent to MO'N leaving the wages have been totally in the control of Faulkner and Lerner (that's what led MO'N to leave).

So Lerner, Faulkner, MO'N, GH and AMcL all share some responsibility for the financial situation. Ultimately it's Randy's responsibility, but he's been let down by various people as well as making mistakes himself. MO'N is one of the people who made bad decisions and who carries some blame.

The circs were that when he took over he was given pretty much free reign by a man who knew little about football. That lasted for a while, then things started to change. While he was manager he made some cracking buys - Milner, Young etc. and some total stinkers. A fairly high percentage of stinkers for a top manager. Those players cost money in fees and wages, and he chose them.

Yes it would have been better for RL to employ also a football wise director, and that was his mistake. It's an ongoing weakness. That doesn't mean MO'N as well as doing much good, didn't also make some bad decisions which ended up costing the club a lot of money. He's not ulitmately responsible, but he's partly responsible as the man charged with improving the squad with all the money made available. He didn't get good value in many many instances.

Curtis Davies, Heskey, Beye, Warnock, Harewood, Shorey, Sidwell, Cuellar, Dunne. Collins, Ireland - none of these were really good value. All were poicked by MO'N to buy.

Milner, Young, Downing, etc were.

And many more were "normal value" sold for something back, or cost little but did well.

[markavfc40]

Totally agree with Pete's post above. Spot on as is usually the case.

[AshVilla]

Lerner at training today

 

http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3110042,00.html

 

I bet half the squad were yelling for a payrise

[Morpheus]

I very much doubt that.

[Richard]

Totally agree with Pete's post above. Spot on as is usually the case.

not sure about that mark, it's based on an assumption, a line that has been fed by the club successfully it seems since Marin O'neill left the club that he had total responsibility and authority over the spending at the club, and not only that but it was a change in that policy that led to his departure.

An assumption that underpins that post and an assumption which is highly debatable and questionable given the evidence we have seen since his departure

[Richard]

So MoN spends money to get a club where they should be for the money spent and he's to blame for current problems?

I don't know who you're arguing with BJ10, but it's not me.

I'm simply debating the 'fact' that we had the 6th highest wage bill and the 6th best squad. I haven't mentioned anything about current problems.

Funny that.

who has said we had the sixth best squad?

[Big_John_10]

What's he currently responsible for?

What's he currently to blame for?

People seem to push blame on him for the poor decisions of Randy Lerner and the awful performances of the managers who'd replaced him.

Since MoN left we've spent around £61 million on new players and £16 million on compensation for managers.

Is anyone going to honestly tell me that if Lerner had hired the right replacement 3 years ago and that manager had spent £77 million on new players that we'd be in this situation right now? Anyone really think that?

Mon did not leave us in the mess that some people like to make out.

It's utter rubbish. If Lerner, houllier and Mcleish hadn't **** up nobody right now would be trying to blame MoN for anything to do with Aston Villa football club.

[Richard]

Or not replaced him john and given him 77m to spend over the three years?

[markavfc40]

Totally agree with Pete's post above. Spot on as is usually the case.

not sure about that mark, it's based on an assumption, a line that has been fed by the club successfully it seems since Marin O'neill left the club that he had total responsibility and authority over the spending at the club, and not only that but it was a change in that policy that led to his departure.

An assumption that underpins that post and an assumption which is highly debatable and questionable given the evidence we have seen since his departure

 

 

I am someone who liked O'Neill and thought given the amount he spent in terms of wages and fees he achieved about what you'd expect. However that doesn't mean he didn't sign some right tripe and the wages they were put on were way higher than they should have. I don't know what Mons involvement was in determining what wages to pay players, nobody does, but I can't imagine he wasn't at least consulted on whether the likes of  Beye were worth a reported 40k a week, Heskey 60k a week etc etc.

 

Lerner has been at best naive and at worst a clueless, irresponsible **** idiot in allowing wages to get to a level that the club could not sustain. I personally under O'Neill did not have a problem with finishing sixth and having the sixth highest wage bill. However I like many was oblivious to the fact that the club didn't seem to realize until it was too late that they couldn't get income up to a level to sustain that level of wages. It certainly should not have been assumed that we could have the sixth highest wage bill and be finishing top 4 and playing Champions League football and gaining the income that would bring. That however it appears may well have been the assumption.

Edited March 15, 2013 by markavfc40

[Mantis]

The problem with O'Neill's spending is that we simply did not get value for money.

[briny_ear]

Apart from remembering it is free REIN that Lerner is supposed to have given to MON (not REIGN) I think there should be a moratorium on anyone peddling this line until a shred of evidence can be produced to show it has any factual basis.

[il_serpente]

I doubt there's anyone who didn't think the MON years were exciting at the time, and I don't know that that would have changed even if supporters had understood what was happening with the finances and known the consequences of failing to make the final push to champions league football.  But that doesn't mean that he doesn't bear some of the responsibility for the current situation.  I'm reluctant to use the word blame because he was working within the plan at the time, albeit with some big mistakes whose consequences wouldn't be apparent for a year or more and after the plan had to change.

 

6th place finishes with the 6th highest wages seems good value when each year is looked at in isolation, but the problem is with the make up of that wage bill, not only in terms of who was paid what, but also whose wages could/would be made available to pay other players in the coming years.  This is where MON shares responsibility  The big problem is that the best players/signings were the ones whose contracts were expiring and who were always going to be difficult to hold onto regardless.  Barry, Young and Milner were never going to stay beyond their contracts no matter how much money was made available for their wages.  Wages, and to some extent transfer funds, could normally have been made available for suitable replacements by shifting some of the players who weren't performing and replacing them with prospects on lower wages.  But those players were largely the crap  signed to long term deals on inflated wages during MON's tenure.  So Milner, Young and Barry leave and there's not the necessary recurring budget to pay the wages to get anywhere approaching the same quality.  And that has most certainly carried over to the current season and can most certainly be laid partly at MON's feet.  Notice, the word "partly", BJ10  .

The argument that $60+ million has been spent on transfer fees since MON left is a red herring because it ignores the fact that wages are the real problem.  I don't believe for a minute that MON would have done better with the transfer funds spent the last couple of years, particularly given his record with player wages.  The players he would have needed to maintain the same level would not have been within reach because of the wages they would require.  This problem has only gotten worse as Villa has become a less attractive destination for ambitious, proven players. Bent was a panic buy to stay up (which paid off) and Ireland's total cost was tied up in the Milner deal and I bet doesn't earn as much as Milner would have cost even if he could have been convinced to stay.  I doubt N'Zogbia is making as much as Young was, and certainly not as much as Young and Downing combined, whom he replaced.  So we've mostly had to replace the top players with ones whose wages are far less because far too much of the wage bill was tied up in the overpaid flops that O'Neill played a significant role in saddling us with.  The fact that this practice continued to some extent after his departure with players like Makoun and Hutton has just made it worse, but O'Neill doesn't get off the hook completely just because Houllier and McLeish didn't put a complete stop to it.

 

Just as it's ridiculous to say our current situation is all MON's fault, it's ridiculous to say he bears no responsibility.  Lerner has obviously made a number of mistakes, not the least of which was to either give MON free rein (reign to you, briny_ear  ) or offer crazy wages and long deals to sub-par players picked by MON, depending on which version you believe. For most of us, it's just a disagreement about how to apportion responsibility among Lerner, MON, Houllier, McLeish and Lambert.  I personally tend to view the importance of their roles in the order listed.