Bazdavies79 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 They didn't, they went from one crap manager to another and sacked a decent one poorly, before getting Redknapp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 John I have to go, I'll take you up on those points later. Baz, there's no need to "take me up on those points". If you have a different point of view (as you appear to have) then we simply have to agree to disagree. It may all depend on what we hope for at Aston Villa. Your hopes and views on the club may be at a more cosmetic level, whereas I take history and gut feelings into account. Anyone who has had a deep affinity with the club will take a more emotional stance on how the club is run. I am sure everyone was happy with RL coming in and giving a really good face-lift to the old club and, importantly, giving important financial support to MON. However, although MON (OK it can be seen mostly in retrospect) made a few duff but expensive signings, there were pretty good signings he made that have been sold off at a good profit (plus Barry). Again, though his style of management was not perfect, there were some high spots during his tenure and a complete welcome after the 6 or 7 years of comparative sterility at VP under HDE. Now I feel we have lurched back into another period of sterlility, and after those 4 years of comparative success I am sure it has been a shock to all genuine Villa fans. And it has been done without proper communication, which you claim is not a serious issue. Well, alongside the big decisions, it may not be as important, but to fans in shock, they probably see it differently. RL's apparent need to scale back can be understood, but to combine that with AM's appointment and the lack of panache that we see in his teams adds to the shock. Meanwhile fans are expected to pay for STs and turn up as the obedient flock that RL seems to think they are. This whole approach seems to be a return to HDE's atitude towards the fans; yet another shock. I know that Blandy is keen to say that Doug was a far worse character, but I'm not going to get into an argument about that. I repeat that I feel we are lurching towards the relegation zone. We may avoid relegation, but that's not quite what was expected this season. If a hefty wad of money is paid out in January to keep us up, the question could well be asked, "why wasn't it invested in the summer to keep Villa in the top-half". And that investment may also have given better quality football. ... Or would it, under AM?! We have to wait till January to get a better clue as to how all this is to pan out. I forgot to add that reduction of investment, as it has shown this season, can be utterly unproductive and produce poor returns. Fans have already started staying away - put off by what they're watching - and players of quality will not want to come. This was precisely HDE's approach, therefore nothing much has changed in real terms since Doug went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 What exactly is better now than under doug? Attendances? The players we sign? Managers we appoint? Football we play? Respect and reputation? How we compete with the top teams? How we hold on to our best players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 What exactly is better now than under doug? Attendances? The players we sign? Managers we appoint? Football we play? Respect and reputation? How we compete with the top teams? How we hold on to our best players? Net value of the club? Level of debt? Communication with the fans? Level of football knowledge at board level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted November 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 23, 2011 I don't know what everyone is moaning about. There's 15% off in the villa store! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 From the previous page However, even with the right manager our income, as a club, dictates that we'd be doing very well to get any higher than 5th in the current football climate (which is why I find comparisons to Doug's (the chairman who would very likely have had us relegated) 1990's achievements misleading (not that they're anything to shout about either)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Jones Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 What exactly is better now than under doug? Attendances? The players we sign? Managers we appoint? Football we play? Respect and reputation? How we compete with the top teams? How we hold on to our best players? Net value of the club? Level of debt? Communication with the fans? Level of football knowledge at board level? One of the big positives must be the large interest the Lerner family are receiving on the debt, way more than he could get out in the market. Hang on that's not really what you meant :oops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 What exactly is better now than under doug? Well - We have a nice training ground that was finishing off what HDE started We have a nice Holte Hotel - that now hardly opens because no one uses it and cost over £5m - good business? err..........??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted November 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2011 What exactly is better now than under doug? Well - We have a nice training ground that was finishing off what HDE started We have a nice Holte Hotel - that now hardly opens because no one uses it and cost over £5m - good business? err..........??????? Doug didn't have a tattoo. But he did have a private plate on his Roller so shall we call that one quits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shillzz Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 He's not quite on Doug's level yet. But if he carried on in the same manner for another 20 years, then I'd imagine they pair of them would be held in the same regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irreverentad Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 The problem Randy has is that he showed the fans a glimpse of the 'dream'. By spending alot on players he teased the fans of what might have been etc. Doug never really did that too much. Therefore because this wasn't expected from Randy people are understandably irate. However people must understand that if he cannot sustain that spending and need a change in policy, then that is fair enough also for him to make that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Just reflecting on John and Baz's debate, no club will ever get the managerial appointment right every time. There are so many factors that come to bear that it is impossible to predict how any one person will perform. Strachan epitomised this for me when he was good at some clubs (Coventry from memory and okay at Celtic) and very poor at others (Southampton I seem to remember). All we, as fans, can ask IMO is that the appointment is well thought through, well advised and, most importantly, gives the fans a bit of hope that they might have got the right one. MON certainly did this for me initially although I became very frustrated with him in the end (lack of flexibility/tactics) and was glad when he left. I wouldn't have recruited Ged, but I could see the logic - well respected, decent record, worked with younger players etc.. - although he didn't deliver for us. But it all went wrong when RL appointed Eck because he is the anti-football and he brings no hope at all. We all know what to expect and it is not good. Unlike John, I also think that the Blues association is massively important because, even if we do not think it relevant, a large proportion of the fan base do and they will leave Villa as a consequence. If Blues had just won the Premier League and we had stolen a great manager from them we would all be rejoicing and lauding it over our neighbours BUT they did not and we have not! Many clubs have picked the wrong man with hindsight but very few as blatantly as RL has with this last appointment. As Baz says, even if we had picked the right manager the best we could hope for, given revenues etc. would be 5th. I would happily take this if we played with some style and swagger (in the way that Swansea do for example) on the way and we blended in our exciting youth as well. I wouldn't mind if we finished 8th or 9th if we looked like the football was improving and we had hope that we were moving forward as a club. This is a little different to watching us play like a gutless load of tripe with a poor RB at RW, Heskey at LW, Collins giving goals away again and little or no connectivity between the CM and two strikers. As for his scaling back, very few are questioning the need to balance the books but some, like me, are questioning whether it needed to be done so quickly that we end up in a position where we are seriously short in a few positions and risk getting sucked into a relegation battle e.g. we only really have one combative/holding CM'er in Herd and I think it has been crazy to go into a season in this position. There are players on the books like Beye, Heskey etc. that are just too expensive (I would also argue that Stan is on above market wages) but the first two fall off at the end of this season and we could have carried them whilst bringing in new faces, recognising that it was RL that sanctioned these wages in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 He's not quite on Doug's level yet. But if he carried on in the same manner for another 20 years, then I'd imagine they pair of them would be held in the same regard. Exactly! Ellis had over thirty years at the club and, amongst other things, managed to take a club who'd been Champions of Europe into the old second division within a space of just a few years. Under Randy we had four good years and a season of turmoil (in which we still managed to finish ninth). Things aren't going that great at the moment, but who knows what the rest of the season will bring. There's problems at the club, sure, but let's give Randy a few years to fix it before these petty comparisons to Doug Ellis, or calls to sell up and **** off, start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaceydeaceyaggro Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 He's not quite on Doug's level yet. But if he carried on in the same manner for another 20 years, then I'd imagine they pair of them would be held in the same regard. Exactly! Ellis had over thirty years at the club and, amongst other things, managed to take a club who'd been Champions of Europe into the old second division within a space of just a few years. Under Randy we had four good years and a season of turmoil (in which we still managed to finish ninth). Things aren't going that great at the moment, but who knows what the rest of the season will bring. There's problems at the club, sure, but let's give Randy a few years to fix it before these petty comparisons to Doug Ellis, or calls to sell up and **** off, start! Ellis wouldn't have sold our 4 best players in the space of a couple of years like Lerner did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2011 Ellis had over thirty years at the club and, amongst other things, managed to take a club who'd been Champions of Europe into the old second division within a space of just a few years. Under Randy we had four good years and a season of turmoil (in which we still managed to finish ninth). Things aren't going that great at the moment, but who knows what the rest of the season will bring. There's problems at the club, sure, but let's give Randy a few years to fix it before these petty comparisons to Doug Ellis... Phew. I thought everyone had lost their marbles completely. Thanks for showing there's at least some perspective and sanity left, mctw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Strachan epitomised this for me when he was good at some clubs (Coventry from memory and okay at Celtic) and very poor at others (Southampton I seem to remember). Off topic from the point you're making (which I agree with) but didn't Strachan do rather well at Soton and it only fell apart after he'd left? Got 'em to a cup final, European football and a top-half finish if I remember rightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Ellis wouldn't have sold our 4 best players in the space of a couple of years like Lerner did. I think getting the Champions of Europe relegated within five years was worse. Oh, and I think if you look over the transfers then you'll find similar clear outs happened under Ellis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 He's not quite on Doug's level yet. But if he carried on in the same manner for another 20 years, then I'd imagine they pair of them would be held in the same regard. Exactly! Ellis had over thirty years at the club and, amongst other things, managed to take a club who'd been Champions of Europe into the old second division within a space of just a few years. ... The main reign of HDE started at the end of 1982, just at the time that the club was losing a lot of money (for those days), the debacle about the North Stand was getting to its peak and - importantly - there was a national (and particularly Midlands-affected) depression. Apart from Harry Parkes' consortium, there was only HDE who was available to put the matters right. In trying to do so he had to tighten the purse strings, just like RL is now doing - no different. Unfortunately, the depression plus one or two poor managerial appointments (just like RL) saw relegation take place. But then he appointed Graham Taylor. Under Randy we had four good years and a season of turmoil (in which we still managed to finish ninth). Things aren't going that great at the moment, but who knows what the rest of the season will bring. There's problems at the club, sure, but let's give Randy a few years to fix it before these petty comparisons to Doug Ellis, or calls to sell up and **** off, start! Well, the opinion of a number is that a fight against relegation could again come round this season. That would be twice in two seasons if that occurs. What RL has done before is acknowledged. Let's see what happens in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 ... Unlike John, I also think that the Blues association is massively important because, even if we do not think it relevant, a large proportion of the fan base do and they will leave Villa as a consequence. If Blues had just won the Premier League and we had stolen a great manager from them we would all be rejoicing and lauding it over our neighbours BUT they did not and we have not! Fair point! I'd like to say that I meant that AM coming from Blews was not technically important. As for his scaling back, very few are questioning the need to balance the books but some, like me, are questioning whether it needed to be done so quickly that we end up in a position where we are seriously short in a few positions and risk getting sucked into a relegation battle e.g. we only really have one combative/holding CM'er in Herd and I think it has been crazy to go into a season in this position. There are players on the books like Beye, Heskey etc. that are just too expensive (I would also argue that Stan is on above market wages) but the first two fall off at the end of this season and we could have carried them whilst bringing in new faces, recognising that it was RL that sanctioned these wages in the first place. V.V.I. !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Phew. I thought everyone had lost their marbles completely. Thanks for showing there's at least some perspective and sanity left, mctw. I'm glad someone appreciates that there's still some perspective to be had. What I will also say is this: whilst I don't agree with a lot of stuff on this thread, I sympathise with everyone's frustrations. However, there's no point just writing about it on a message board. This thread could rumble on for months to come. The reading of posts, writing of responses, and backwards and forwards, round and round debate that goes on is a waste of time and energy. There's a number of vociferous posters on here who could channel their energy to something more positive - try to make a change. Get together, form a pressure group or organise a protest. See if you can force the change you want. Doing nothing but posting on here does no good. Your voices won't be heard. It will just end in frustration whilst the man at the top maintains his untouchable, and undisturbed, position at the club. Who knows what might happen. Maybe something you perceive to be positive. Maybe nothing. Maybe he'll sell. Maybe you'll just get some answers to some difficult questions. Who knows! What we do know is that Randy is going nowhere and getting irate on Villatalk achieves little! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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