Grasshopper Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 So to keep this thread alive ASHLEY WESTWOOD is SHITE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Just on Westwood as a few disagreed with Me when I didn't see him as a model professional. I used James milner as a reason why and for me, he's confirmed that even more in recent weeks. Forget the training hard out of the limelight..... that's a given for me. Basic requirements of the job. Ashley Westwood is coming to the peak of his career and is getting worse (somehow ). He hasn't improved one jot. Some of that will be down to the environment he's in but that's a minor point for me as we've seen players improve at this club. James Milner has recently been asked to play out of position. Of course he's more of a utility man than Westwood but he hasnt just gone in at left back and done a job. He's gone in and has actually become arguably one of the best performing left backs in the league. I can't think of many, if any that have been better (I realise that Chelsea play a back 3). A lot of players sulk and moan and use it as an excuse.... being played out of position. Instead Milner, makes the position his own and develops his game further. That's above and beyond imo and the very definition of a model professional. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2017 Just now, Woodytom said: Just on Westwood as a few disagreed with Me when I didn't see him as a model professional. I used James milner as a reason why and for me, he's confirmed that even more in recent weeks. Forget the training hard out of the limelight..... that's a given for me. Basic requirements of the job. Ashley Westwood is coming to the peak of his career and is getting worse (somehow ). He hasn't improved one jot. Some of that will be down to the environment he's in but that's a minor point for me as we've seen players improve at this club. James Milner has recently been asked to play out of position. Of course he's more of a utility man than Westwood but he hasnt just gone in at left back and done a job. He's gone in and has actually become arguably one of the best performing left backs in the league. I can't think of many, if any that have been better (I realise that Chelsea play a back 3). A lot of players sulk and moan and use it as an excuse.... being played out of position. Instead Milner, makes the position his own and develops his game further. That's above and beyond imo and the very definition of a model professional. But you're still basing all this on ability. I'm sure Westwood hasn't been asked to play out of position because he's not good enough to play out of position. That doesn't make him any more or less of a "model pro" If your definition of a model pro primarily involves being really good at football, then no Westwood isn't a model pro. So your problem with people calling him a "model pro" is that you have a different definition to the term than most people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philgetaway Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, DCJonah said: No it wasn't. It was on the website. It's been corrected now it seems. I would doubt opta getting it so wrong for two players. saying that it does fit the post truth world we live in. Edited January 4, 2017 by philgetaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 23 hours ago, Stevo985 said: I get where he's coming from. If you had a really good DM and a really good AM, then Westwood might be ok being the link between the two. Because really the only thing he has to his game is keeping possession and passing. Whereas where we are, we don't have the "luxury" of having a player who only has those attributes. We need someone who will pitch in with more tackling and ball winning than Westwood does and also pitches in with more incisive passing and chance creating than Westwood does. Basically he just doesn't do enough to justify being in our midfield in it's current state. Maybe if we had a better midfield you could accommodate him, but then chances are if you had a midfield that strong you'd have better players than Westwood available anyway. I get your point, but it does come back to that horrible criteria that has probably landed us here " accommodating" ....no player should be accommodated if there is any ambition. I know you was not saying we should, just explaining thats the best we could hope for.....( lead on point)But IMO that accommodating thing has us where we are and Everton and Spurs (who I always benchmarked us against,) where they are. We need to get more ruthless in just about every aspect of our football business. Edited January 4, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: But you're still basing all this on ability. I'm sure Westwood hasn't been asked to play out of position because he's not good enough to play out of position. That doesn't make him any more or less of a "model pro" If your definition of a model pro primarily involves being really good at football, then no Westwood isn't a model pro. So your problem with people calling him a "model pro" is that you have a different definition to the term than most people. being pedantic (sorry) but youve just reinforced the arguement against your arguement He's not a midfielder - so he's being played out of position thus being shit and not a model pro in any form other than that of fullfulling his contractual obligations. If this us your definition, then you can also be accused of "having a different definition of the term than most people" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: But you're still basing all this on ability. Not at all. This is where I think a lot of ppl are missing the point. There are better players than James milner who I don't think are as good of a pro. My point is that having been chosen to play LB because he 'can do a job', he hasn't stopped at just 'doing a job'. He's looked to improve and work at his game so that actually they don't even need to get a new LB now because James has become a very good one himself. That's not just about ability. It's about attitude, Desire, willing to learn, motivation and knowing what's good for the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, philgetaway said: I would doubt opta getting it so wrong for two players. saying that it does fit the post truth world we live in. It was on the website showing incorrectly. I checked. My guess is (and it's only a guess) Opta don't have as many people working the Championship so have to go back and fill in the gaps on certain stats afterwards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: being pedantic (sorry) but youve just reinforced the arguement against your arguement He's not a midfielder - so he's being played out of position thus being shit and not a model pro in any form other than that of fullfulling his contractual obligations. If this us your definition, then you can also be accused of "having a different definition of the term than most people" If you can reword this in a way that it makes even the remotest bit of sense then I'll reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Not at all. This is where I think a lot of ppl are missing the point. There are better players than James milner who I don't think are as good of a pro. My point is that having been chosen to play LB because he 'can do a job', he hasn't stopped at just 'doing a job'. He's looked to improve and work at his game so that actually they don't even need to get a new LB now because James has become a very good one himself. That's not just about ability. It's about attitude, Desire, willing to learn, motivation and knowing what's good for the team. Fair enough. I completely disagree but again it's to do with definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: If you can reword this in a way that it makes even the remotest bit of sense then I'll reply You're Wrong 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjvilla Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Not at all. This is where I think a lot of ppl are missing the point. There are better players than James milner who I don't think are as good of a pro. My point is that having been chosen to play LB because he 'can do a job', he hasn't stopped at just 'doing a job'. He's looked to improve and work at his game so that actually they don't even need to get a new LB now because James has become a very good one himself. That's not just about ability. It's about attitude, Desire, willing to learn, motivation and knowing what's good for the team. Personally, I think it is all about ability. There is no saying (you and I can both admit we have no clue) that Westwood works his bollocks off in training trying to improve everything and anything. But his ability limits what he can/can't do on the pitch. Milner has a very good footballing brain and is clearly more talented than Westwood which is why he is able to slot in at a number of positions and do well there. neither of us can state, 100%, that Westwood doesn't train hard and look to improve because we simply don't know if it's his attitude or simply his footballing ability that's causing him to perform the way he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 4, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Mjvilla said: Personally, I think it is all about ability. There is no saying (you and I can both admit we have no clue) that Westwood works his bollocks off in training trying to improve everything and anything. But his ability limits what he can/can't do on the pitch. Milner has a very good footballing brain and is clearly more talented than Westwood which is why he is able to slot in at a number of positions and do well there. neither of us can state, 100%, that Westwood doesn't train hard and look to improve because we simply don't know if it's his attitude or simply his footballing ability that's causing him to perform the way he is. Exactly. If I was signed to play for Villa I'd be **** diabolical. Even if I was the most "model professional" the world has ever seen, I'd still be utterly terrible. Now I'm sure James Milner is a model pro, but the main reason he can slot in in different positions and play well is because he's very good at football. I'm certain that Wayne Rooney at his peak could have played any position on the field and put in a good performance. But by all accounts he's not even close to being a "model pro". Edited January 4, 2017 by Stevo985 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Mjvilla said: Personally, I think it is all about ability. There is no saying (you and I can both admit we have no clue) that Westwood works his bollocks off in training trying to improve everything and anything. But his ability limits what he can/can't do on the pitch. Milner has a very good footballing brain and is clearly more talented than Westwood which is why he is able to slot in at a number of positions and do well there. neither of us can state, 100%, that Westwood doesn't train hard and look to improve because we simply don't know if it's his attitude or simply his footballing ability that's causing him to perform the way he is. We know that he doesn't look to improve because he hasn't. The chances are that if you're a pro footballer and you look to improve.... you do. Take Gary neville for example. Better rb than Westwood is cm.. obviously. However what neville did was take a weakness of his game.... crossing and developed it so he became a very good crosser. What example of that do we have for Westwood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mjvilla said: Personally, I think it is all about ability. There is no saying (you and I can both admit we have no clue) that Westwood works his bollocks off in training trying to improve everything and anything. But his ability limits what he can/can't do on the pitch. Milner has a very good footballing brain and is clearly more talented than Westwood which is why he is able to slot in at a number of positions and do well there. neither of us can state, 100%, that Westwood doesn't train hard and look to improve because we simply don't know if it's his attitude or simply his footballing ability that's causing him to perform the way he is. While i think it plays a major part.....but,I could not disagree more. If you do not have the drive, tenacity, will, belief, determination to APPLY that talent it is worthless.....application is like a fuse is to a firework......no fuse, no sparklies/fireworks Read Steve Bruce's article in tonights Birmingham Mail.....its sums it up. Edited January 4, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Woodytom said: Not at all. This is where I think a lot of ppl are missing the point. There are better players than James milner who I don't think are as good of a pro. My point is that having been chosen to play LB because he 'can do a job', he hasn't stopped at just 'doing a job'. He's looked to improve and work at his game so that actually they don't even need to get a new LB now because James has become a very good one himself. That's not just about ability. It's about attitude, Desire, willing to learn, motivation and knowing what's good for the team. How can you gauge any of that from watching a player on the pitch without projecting your own biases? What if Milner didn't actually have much motivation or desire as you say, but was actually just really gifted at learning new positions and improving as a player? Conversely If you don't have the ability to improve in a position, it doesn't mean you're any less of a pro. But yeah it does seem like your definition of a model pro is different from most. Most people refer to conduct, how they train, application etc. Westwood hasn't put a foot wrong in those areas, and has been praised by his previous managers and people like Stan Petrov in that respect. So while you might say that calling him a model pro is a bit too much, is it really such an egregious statement that you have to bring it up again months after the initial discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 37 minutes ago, Keyblade said: How can you gauge any of that from watching a player on the pitch without projecting your own biases? What if Milner didn't actually have much motivation or desire as you say, but was actually just really gifted at learning new positions and improving as a player? Conversely If you don't have the ability to improve in a position, it doesn't mean you're any less of a pro. But yeah it does seem like your definition of a model pro is different from most. Most people refer to conduct, how they train, application etc. Westwood hasn't put a foot wrong in those areas, and has been praised by his previous managers and people like Stan Petrov in that respect. So while you might say that calling him a model pro is a bit too much, is it really such an egregious statement that you have to bring it up again months after the initial discussion? Firstly, I brought it up because.... as I said..... The current accolades associated with James milner. But in addition to your complaint (as want of a better word) regarding Me bringing it up....don't reply if it's not something you feel needs discussing further. What is the key flaw in your debate is that you reference how they train, and application. How can you possibly refer to a professional footballer as a model pro based on training/application when it's widely accepted on here (I'm sure you're included but not certain) that he's getting worse. If you apply yourself right and train right (as you suggest he does), you DON'T get worse. You just don't. Especially when you consider he has dropped a level also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 43 minutes ago, Keyblade said: If you don't have the ability to improve in a position, it doesn't mean you're any less of a pro. No it doesn't no. But if you're ability is declining along with the level you're playing at, Imo, it speaks volumes about your application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 23 minutes ago, Woodytom said: No it doesn't no. But if you're ability is declining along with the level you're playing at, Imo, it speaks volumes about your application. Only if that's what you want to infer. There are a whole host of reasons why a player's level of play can decline, and to boil it down to a mere lack of application is reductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astonaidan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I dont know how anyone can still defend Westwood. All the excuses at the start of the last season have followed to this season. Cant ye just admit hes rubbish. I cant be he only one sick of hearing hed be perfect for a 3 if our dm and am were better. What sort of bullshit reasoning is that. When has he ever shown that would be the case. If Westwood wasnt English he would be nowhere near starting and would have been sold years ago 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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