theunderstudy Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 This thread.............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 This thread.............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 should see the Next Gen thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 should see the Next Gen thread A lot of that was me responding to BG, so partly my fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 should see the Next Gen thread A lot of that was me responding to BG, so partly my fault One of us was talking about the nextgen series. The other was talking about going to churches to insult married couples. This thread.............................. Well that helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 should see the Next Gen thread A lot of that was me responding to BG, so partly my fault One of us was talking about the nextgen series. The other was talking about going to churches to insult married couples. >This thread.............................. Well that helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I get a lot of grief for my views but at least I'll give credit where i feel it's due. I've said Benteke is an amazing signing. Westwood is a good player Excellent decision offering Guzan a contract. Credit for getting gabby, Nzogbia and Delph performing better. Credit for weimman's performances this year Credit for recent improvements and formation change. Lowton, Bennet and Sylla all have lots of potential to improve. On the flip side the people I tend to always debate with just have excuses. Poor signings? Well what did you expect for the money he had. Poor defence? Not his fault, injuries and young players Poor results? Club was in a mess what could he do? Relegation battle? Keeping us up would be a fantastic achievement. Regarding the poor defence, do you not take into consideration the way that Lambert likes his teams to play? Lambert seems to want his fullbacks to provide an attacking threat, to overlap and support the forwards (which has helped our 'goals scored' column). So when we have so many defenders getting forward, we're bound to be caught on the break and it's more likely that Bennett and Lowton will, seemingly, be out of position. Whereas, it could be that they're just further forward than we'd like them to be. Lambert can be blamed for chosing to set up his team this way, especially if we don't beat the drop. But I don't see why Lowton or the rest of the defence would get wholly blamed for this, when it's clear from his days at Norwich, that Lambert has a knack for creating an attacking team, but a slight weakness when setting them up defensively. I suppose it goes back to the old 'excuse' that you've been given before. It's not all 'black and white'. Goals conceded does not always equal poor defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I suppose it goes back to the old 'excuse' that you've been given before. It's not all 'black and white'. Goals conceded does not always equal poor defenders. And if it was just a below average year for goals conceded I'd kind of agree. But you can't ignore that we're breaking our premiership record while our keeper is having an outstanding season. For me that shows its more than a few of these 'excuses' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Surely the keeper is part of the 'back 5', and it's partly his job to organise the defenders and command his area. How can you say that our keeper is having an outstanding season, but that our defence is poor? Doesn't that contradict what you're saying? Or is it as simple as "We've conceded a lot of goals, but I have seen with my eyes that Guzan has made some good saves. Therefore the 4 defenders have been poor and Guzan has been good" ? If so, I don't agree with that. It's like you're judging Guzan by his individual performance, and then you're grouping our defenders together without judging them individually. I think the defence have been 'okay' overall. Guzan has been good. Vlaar has been good when fit. Lowton has mainly been good, and very consistent. Clark and Baker have been okay, and Bennett has been mainly poor, with glimpses of potential. From what I've seen. I judge our high goals conceded down to individual mistakes, tactical errors, and Lamberts choice to have fullbacks attack more than defend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Yes Guzan is part of it and he's been excellent but when I'm talking about our defence I'm mainly talking about our back 4. Which clearly haven't protected Guzan enough.If so, I don't agree with that. It's like you're judging Guzan by his individual performance, and then you're grouping our defenders together without judging them individually. I've judged them as a unit and individually. And on the whole I don't think they've been good enough on a consistent enough basis.From what I've seen. I judge our high goals conceded down to individual mistakes, tactical errors, and Lamberts choice to have fullbacks attack more than defend Its part of the issue. But even with these tactics I think better defenders would lead to less goal conceded. Do you think we'd have broken our premiership record if we'd had better defenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted April 10, 2013 Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2013 Hard to say though isn't it? If we'd had Vidic alongside Vlaar at centre half would that have shored up the whole defence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raver50032 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Where has someone said that it would be a fantastic achievement to keep us up? Been said a few times. I believe Richard even called for a knighthood. Yes - and to be fair, at this moment, it would be an achievement to keep this club in the Premier League given how things have spiralled over the last few years. A proper tailspin from top to bottom. It's not good enough. As a supporter of this club, I cannot accept that it is ever good enough that this club should be fighting relegation. But we have been, and we are. And it goes way above the playing staff alone and the manager. It's been allowed to happen. But that circular debate rages on in another thread. And back on topic, Lowton alone has provided two very good highlights to this season. I expect him to excell next season - assuming we don't get fingered by a big club in the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I've judged them as a unit and individually. And on the whole I don't think they've been good enough on a consistent enough basis. When judging them individually, do you not think that Lowton has been better than Hutton?Do you think we'd have broken our premiership record if we'd had better defenders? It's difficult to say. We could have spent the Benteke money on a £6m right back or centreback, but Clark or Baker could have still made individual errors that have cost us games. We could have splashed money on Samba, but he's looked extremely average. We could have kept Cuellar/ Collins/ Warnock/ Hutton, but the majority of our fans that have watched us recently have known that our defence needed a big change. All it would have done, would have delayed the re-build for a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 When judging them individually, do you not think that Lowton has been better than Hutton? In terms of going forward, technical ability and potential, yes he's a better player. I honestly don't think he's been good enough as a defender this season though. That's not to say he can't improve or won't improve and become a much better defender than Hutton.All it would have done, would have delayed the re-build for a season. Agreed. But then relegation won't help either. Like I said, lots of potential in the team but I think our poor defending is mainly down to players not performing well enough. Injuries and tactics have played their part as well though. It needs to improve next season that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folski Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Barcelona have conceded 4 more goals already this season than last season despite playing 8 games fewer, but find themselves out in front by a mile in La Liga, possibily an unfair example, so I'll give you another one. Stoke City had conceded 44 goals by this time last season this year they have conceded 39, but are 7 points worse off. Now factor in that Pulis has been at the helm for years and has implement his brand of football well and truly on the club and was also aloud a lot of wiggle room in respect of previous budgets with regards players he could sign this summer. Yet look at Lambert, he inherits a defence that had been accustomed to kicking the ball as far away from their own goal as possible, capable of playing 3 right backs in the one game & he has come in with the exact opposite philosophy, now factor in the financial constraints he has had to work under. Lambert's Norwich side conceded 66 last season but achieved 47 points, at the moment we are on 59. While I agree that this needs to be rectified, I would imagine we will see considerable activity in the summer providing we stay up and can shift a few big earners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 When judging them individually, do you not think that Lowton has been better than Hutton? In terms of going forward, technical ability and potential, yes he's a better player. I honestly don't think he's been good enough as a defender this season though. That's not to say he can't improve or won't improve and become a much better defender than Hutton. >All it would have done, would have delayed the re-build for a season. Agreed. But then relegation won't help either. Like I said, lots of potential in the team but I think our poor defending is mainly down to players not performing well enough. Injuries and tactics have played their part as well though. It needs to improve next season that's for sure. Did you actually watch Hutton defending last year? He was the worst right back we ever had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caw2510 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 When judging them individually, do you not think that Lowton has been better than Hutton? In terms of going forward, technical ability and potential, yes he's a better player. I honestly don't think he's been good enough as a defender this season though. That's not to say he can't improve or won't improve and become a much better defender than Hutton. >All it would have done, would have delayed the re-build for a season. Agreed. But then relegation won't help either. Like I said, lots of potential in the team but I think our poor defending is mainly down to players not performing well enough. Injuries and tactics have played their part as well though. It needs to improve next season that's for sure. Did you actually watch Hutton defending last year? He was the worst right back we ever had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 So that's the only period that should be judged? Everything else has been good in terms of defence then? I've not said either of those things. You didn't even answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Your question was who was in the line up. I think we both know the answer so i don't think you were looking for me to answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 11, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 11, 2013 When judging them individually, do you not think that Lowton has been better than Hutton? In terms of going forward, technical ability and potential, yes he's a better player. I honestly don't think he's been good enough as a defender this season though. That's not to say he can't improve or won't improve and become a much better defender than Hutton I find it hard to believe that anyone could think lowton hasn't been as good as Hutton defensively. Hutton was one of the worst fullbacks (both defensively and offensively) we've had at the club in my memory. Fair enough if Lowton hasn't been "good enough" defensively. But regardless, he's still been a damn sight better than Hutton ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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