P3te Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 you can't be agnostic without being an atheist (despite what some would like to think), but in some cases you can be atheist without being agnostic Actually you can. It's perfectly possible to be an agnostic theist. This is the whole point of the past few pages that baz seems completely blind to, agnostic covers knowledge, theism covers belief. You can believe without knowing, in fact it's a concept right at the heart of religion. With knowledge religion no longer becomes about faith, to have faith you cannot have knowledge, ergo anyone with faith, is by definition agnostic. you can't be an agnostic theist though. to be a genuine theist, you have to completely believe, you can't completely believe if you're not convinced enough that you call yourself agnostic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 And for those of you who are certain there is no god, have you had this debate with Muslims? They tend to be passionate about their religion and believe there is definitely a God (Allah). How did you try to reason with them with regards to this subject. I live in a Muslim country and even questioning the literal "truth" of the Quran can get you into very serious trouble - of the deportation via prison variety. Even Muslim festivals like Ramadan must be strictly observed by non-Muslims in public, again on pain of imprisonment. However in the supposedly more intellectually liberal environment of the UK, similar restrictions on questioning the foundation of the Islamic faith seem to exist. For some reason it enjoys a protected status, possibly due to the death threats that often follow any such public statement, or possibly because of a reflexive instinct to "protect" minorities - particularly given the association now between anti-Islamic speech and far right groups. However one thing that irritates me intensely about the religion debate in UK is this: if one publicly called Christianity a backward faith, dreamed up by ancient desert dwellers, many people would laugh and agree with you. Should one say the same about Islam you would likely be kicked to death by "anti-fascists" (no irony there of course) or be hauled in by the old bill for committing a religious hate crime - certainly if you used descriptive terms similar to those of AJ Rimmer a few pages ago. Personally I don't subscribe to any organised faith but do identify with the Christian values I was raised with in the home, church, school etc. Similarly I don't believe this (our temporal existence on earth) is all there is. Not sure what label the screaming atheists would put on me for having those views, but no doubt it will have a rude word and some sneering contempt in it somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It is disgusting the way society pays lip service to this filthy rubbish. We just might open a few eyes and all be a good deal better off if, like me, we finally start telling it like it really is. That is very forthright. Some would argue too forthright. You could potentially get yourself written off for comments like that. You need to try and see things from their point of view rather then dismiss them as morons and disrespct their prophet Allah. I think your approach is mistaken, though your comments sound most reasonable and I respect your right to make them... unlike the vast majority of muslims who would take away my right to express my opinions... and a somewhat smaller number who wish to kill me for making them. However, I'm disappointed you seem prepared to tolerate those who would rather 'write me off' than allow me my feedom of speech. Thus far the things I say have produced nothing more than dropped jaws, but if those who believe in this filthy crap opt for a war of annihilation, which is how many of them talk, then so be it. My claret & blue blooded grandmother died this year aged 101. She lost 8 members of her family in WW1, who along with many many others bequeathed us the freedoms we all enjoy today. I'm prepared to pay any price, and exact any price, to pass these freedoms on to my heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'd admire your bravery a bit more if you didn't live in South America AJR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'd admire your bravery a bit more if you didn't live in South America AJR You're joking? He's our sleeper if the Argie slag kicks off again. #conspiracy thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 You need to try and see things from their point of view rather then dismiss them as morons and disrespct their prophet Allah. Won't get too involved in this thread as am not 'learned' enough on the topic but, at the risk of splitting hairs, I THINK the muslims prophet is Muhammed not Allah. Allah (again I think) is really the same as our word for God. Most of my info on islam comes from prisoners when I worked in a prison so may not be strictly accurate. Islam was thriving in the prison with a significant number of converts. Interestingly, to me anyway, was that the biggest fight I ever saw was at Friday prayers in the mosque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 10, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2012 Interestingly, to me anyway, was that the biggest fight I ever saw was at Friday prayers in the mosque.What were they fighting about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think some officers went into the mosque to check on somebody or something ....... and didn't take their shoes off ! I believe this is called entering with 'dirty feet'. Anyway, all hell broke loose and I happened to be walking between wings, past the mosque, at that time. I can assure you I was scared witless and bid a very hasty retreat. Somewhat ironic I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 10, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think some officers went into the mosque to check on somebody or something ....... and didn't take their shoes off ! I believe this is called entering with 'dirty feet'. Anyway, all hell broke loose and I happened to be walking between wings, past the mosque, at that time. I can assure you I was scared witless and bid a very hasty retreat. Somewhat ironic I suppose.Officers? Police, you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 There is nothing an all-knowing, all-powerful god hates more than dirty feet, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Graham Linehan (who alone is reason enough to have a Twitter account) just tweeted this: "Priests at my school told us how to do an emergency baptism if a baby in our care was dying. So, if you need a babysitter, look no further. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 There is nothing an all-knowing, all-powerful god hates more than dirty feet, you know. You are very cynical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted September 10, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted September 10, 2012 There is nothing an all-knowing, all-powerful god hates more than dirty feet, you know. You are very cynical. He has a point though, doesn't he? Even if it was said for comedy effect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Officers? Police, you mean? No- sorry Prison Officers (PO.s as we called'em) I was in Education not a Prison Officer. Not big enough or hard enough ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 you can't be agnostic without being an atheist (despite what some would like to think), but in some cases you can be atheist without being agnostic Actually you can. It's perfectly possible to be an agnostic theist. This is the whole point of the past few pages that baz seems completely blind to, agnostic covers knowledge, theism covers belief. You can believe without knowing, in fact it's a concept right at the heart of religion. With knowledge religion no longer becomes about faith, to have faith you cannot have knowledge, ergo anyone with faith, is by definition agnostic. you can't be an agnostic theist though. to be a genuine theist, you have to completely believe, you can't completely believe if you're not convinced enough that you call yourself agnostic Agnosticism has nothing to do with belief. You can believe something but not know it. I believe I won't see Villa win the league. Do I know it? No, but I believe it. It's the same with religion, you can believe in the existence of God completely, yet not know he exists. There's actually a word for it, its called faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 But you must remember words meanings change through common usage though. How many of you are feeling gay right now? Many words meanings are not set in stone, and are open to interpretation. Huxley, the guy who first coined the term agnostic was considered and anti theist, but always denied he was an atheist, preferring, like Darwin to call himself simply, yeah you guessed it agnostic. Arguing over definitions is pointless in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted September 11, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted September 11, 2012 So pretty much, everyone is agnostic (by actual definition, which I just looked up to confirm what Don is saying) but some choose to think that the word has a different meaning to what it actually has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 No, not everybody has to be agnostic. But yes, I think lots of people are confused to its actual meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 There is nothing an all-knowing, all-powerful god hates more than dirty feet, you know. Is it worse than coveting your neighbour's ox? You're right, if I'd gone to all the effort of creating trillions of galaxies, I'd be rightly annoyed if some little toerag thought that his mate's donkey was better than his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'd admire your bravery a bit more if you didn't live in South America AJR It's true... and I like telling people I live a thousand miles from the nearest muslim... a slight exaggeration. However, to prove my evenhandedness in such matters, I'm known in town as the only person who ever interrupted a happy clappy and asked them to keep down the volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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