All-Purpose Religion Thread

[A.J.Rimmer]

Bazdavies79, On the Egypt/Tunisia thread, which I've not read very closely, there is some talk about the numbers of muslims who support the kind of actions we saw in Libya 2 days agio and Yemen today. Someone said that 99.9% were peacefully minded, but this was scoffed at by someone who lived in the Gulf, who thought the percentage closer to 50/50. (I could be misquoting and am not referring to the thread as I write).

However, I once travelled a good deal in these areas and I suspect the 50/50 figure to be roughly correct... and even if it's 15% out, this still leaves an enormous residue of people who would rather we were dead.

Mathematically, one can only know for sure by asking everyone... that is assuming they tell you the truth.

Personally, as I said earlier and as I now practise, I think we should be insulting these pig feckers and their pig fecking prophet until they learn to like it.

Finally, I was annoyed yesterday watching Obama pronouncing that the US respects all religious beliefs. Why? Perhaps the time has come to not respect any... and better yet, to show it.

Anyone who believes they commune with God is a maniac we would all be better off without.

[Bazdavies79]

My mates dad has been driving convoys of old vans to be used as ambulances to Palestine for years, he's well travelled in Muslim countries and paints a very different picture to the one you do, but I accept I don't have first hand experience.

I think millions of Muslims just want to live peaceful and happy lives, and although events in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have led many to conclude that western governments have got it in for them - most don't want any more violence.

When we realise that circumstances drive ideas, then we might begin to solve many of the problems. But if you start and end with the point of view 'their religion is nutty', then you're just part of the problem, not the solution.

[tonyh29]

I think millions of Muslims just want to live peaceful and happy lives,

this

it was me who quoted the 99.9% figure in the other thread AJ refers to ... I've travelled to loads of Muslim countries , probably fair to say more than your average man on the street , I've seen plenty of tolerance and always been made to feel welcome .... In Syria I spoke to some local lads who basically said we've nothing against you , but we don't like your government ( due to the war in Iraq at that time) ... and I've heard similar in other Muslim countries that I've been to

the over whelming majority really don't want to kill you , take over the planet or eat your children ..it's really as simple as that

[CrackpotForeigner]

I think millions of Muslims just want to live peaceful and happy lives,

this

it was me who quoted the 99.9% figure in the other thread AJ refers to ... I've travelled to loads of Muslim countries , probably fair to say more than your average man on the street , I've seen plenty of tolerance and always been made to feel welcome .... In Syria I spoke to some local lads who basically said we've nothing against you , but we don't like your government ( due to the war in Iraq at that time) ... and I've heard similar in other Muslim countries that I've been to

the over whelming majority really don't want to kill you , take over the planet or eat your children ..it's really as simple as that

Agree with the basics of what you're saying, but I don't think 99.9% of any population agree on anything. On any given subject you can usually rely on about 60% of people being morons.

[limpid]

When we realise that circumstances drive ideas, then we might begin to solve many of the problems. But if you start and end with the point of view 'their religion is nutty', then you're just part of the problem, not the solution.

My point of view is that ALL religions are nutty.

[Bazdavies79]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Sie]

Satirical online news site The Onion making its point with gusto. Its NSFW by the way.

[norton65ca]

a world without religion would be awesome. Imagine, just interacting with one's fellow man without the lens of religious belief getting in the way. Unconcerned with which man made fairy tale one follows. I'm so sick of it all to be honest, from the right wing Murkan fundamentalists, to the nutbar Scientologists, the mumblings of monks, the peadophile priests, the bomb toting screaming Salafist freaks, the dull and square righteous mormons, the door to door charlatans, the whole fecking bunch can rot in the hells of their own making for all I care, I just wish they'd leave the rest of us be. Imagine a world without a Qu'ran, without a buybull, no Torah, no talmud, none of the vile hate literature anywhere on the planet. I'm dead set against censorship of any kind but a world without those books would be a better world.

[norton65ca]

I'm with Mr Rimmer to be honest, and I think there's no better time than now to hammer home a logical truth that needs stating.

I came from an evangelical background of 29 years into an atheist worldview fairly recently, and I have to say I am conscious of a large body of internal vitriol which is spilling out of me these days about religion and its power.

I support the fundamental human right of all men to believe whatever nonsense and b*llshit they want to believe. It is a right that we must stand by. In a world full of medieval superstitions and lunacy, we unfortunately must accept that because of the nature of these intolerant fantasies, many who do not follow a majority view will be endangered in some places on the globe. Religious freedom (that is, the freedom to worship any skydaddy or mummy or combination of the above) MUST be protected at all costs or blood will flow. Human history proves this.

At the same time, I fervently hold to be true that it is also the right and indeed the duty of the free thinkers of this world to never yield their rights to demolish religious dogma at every opportunity. It is the need of humanity to move forward to develop a more compassionate, civil society which rejects hidebound, barbaric and bronze age superstitions. We will never survive as a species if we do not rid our world of religion and its destructive nature (especially that scourge of the planet, monotheism). We have the right to critique and ridicule religious doctrines and dogma for the sake of our descendants. The distinction between the demolition of ideas and beliefs must be contrasted with the attacks on religious PEOPLE. the two are not the same and we must be perpetually on guard against people who would muddy that distinction. Ideas are there to be either proven or refuted. I will fight organized religion till my dying day as the destructive, ideologically rigid and destructive force it is. I am concerned that these attacks and so on will create an environment ion the west, as the poster noted above, which will prevent decent men and women from being able to critique religious belief in any way, due to fear of offense. This is a dangerous situation which must be faced and opposed. Don't give me hogwash about "Ooh you can't say that, so many are comforted by their faith". it's a convenient excuse for the retention of indoctrination and superstition. Religion must die. Once it's gone, believe me, the world won't miss it. I was there, I drank the koolaid. I am the enemy of religion now. No quarter shall be given and none shall be expected. I wasted too many years of my life being in thrall to Yahweh and his threats. No more. To hell with religion.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Satirical online news site The Onion making its point with gusto. Its NSFW by the way.

Brilliant.

[A.J.Rimmer]

My mates dad has been driving convoys of old vans to be used as ambulances to Palestine for years, he's well travelled in Muslim countries and paints a very different picture to the one you do, but I accept I don't have first hand experience.

I think millions of Muslims just want to live peaceful and happy lives, and although events in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have led many to conclude that western governments have got it in for them - most don't want any more violence.

When we realise that circumstances drive ideas, then we might begin to solve many of the problems. But if you start and end with the point of view 'their religion is nutty', then you're just part of the problem, not the solution.

I'm sure when your father travels in Islamic countries he's well behaved and courteous, so naturally he receives the same considerate behaviour in return. We've all been there and done that... for me it was not only with muslims, but also with the commies, though I was horrified by both.

What I'm saying is that the 99.9% who desire peaceful and happy lives, can still support the 0.1% who wish to blow you up.

Finally, I must take issue with your idea that I am part of the problem. The problem IS religion... pure and simple.

[Eames]

The thing that amuses me more than anything else is that the 3 Abrahamic religions who seem so intent or persecuting other and generally being international dicks are so similar. Its like 3 retellings of the same story.

Once upon a time there were 3 bears...... and the texts/characters/content is very similar until you get to...

Mummy Bear (Judaism) decides that her porridge is just right and takes herself off to corner the world market in International Banking and Western Politics whilst being a dick to Daddy Bear

Daddy Bear (Christianity) decided that his porridge is just right and spends the next 2000 years raping choir boys and being a dick to Mummy Bear and Baby Bear

and Baby Bear (Islam) decides that his porridge is just right but that he's not taking that shit from no-one, especially that food theiving Western infidel girl and together with all the little bears is gonna Jihad those m'****.

[PieFacE]

oops wrong thread.

[Bazdavies79]

What I'm saying is that the 99.9% who desire peaceful and happy lives, can still support the 0.1% who wish to blow you up.

Well, I'm not going to talk in percentages or in black and white terms, there are probably many views in shades of grey.

Finally, I must take issue with your idea that I am part of the problem. The problem IS religion... pure and simple.

They don't dislike us because we're not Muslim but rather because of our actions in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. Most don't want any more violence.

[legov]

The distinction between the demolition of ideas and beliefs must be contrasted with the attacks on religious PEOPLE. the two are not the same and we must be perpetually on guard against people who would muddy that distinction

Most important part of your post. Amen.

(Woops, sorry.)

[A.J.Rimmer]

The distinction between the demolition of ideas and beliefs must be contrasted with the attacks on religious PEOPLE. the two are not the same and we must be perpetually on guard against people who would muddy that distinction

Most important part of your post. Amen.

(Woops, sorry.)

I'm not so sure I agree with that:

Does it mean we can criticise paedophelia, but we must be nice to paedophiles?

Voting National Socialist in 1933, did not make one guilty of committing the Holocaust... but it does give you a share of the responsibility for what happened.

Likewise with our religious bretheren... none of them should be without some share of the guilt.

[Eames]

The distinction between the demolition of ideas and beliefs must be contrasted with the attacks on religious PEOPLE. the two are not the same and we must be perpetually on guard against people who would muddy that distinction

Most important part of your post. Amen.

(Woops, sorry.)

I'm not so sure I agree with that:

Does it mean we can criticise paedophelia, but we must be nice to paedophiles?

Voting National Socialist in 1933, did not make one guilty of committing the Holocaust... but it does give you a share of the responsibility for what happened.

Likewise with our religious bretheren... none of them should be without some share of the guilt.

MUST NOT BITE.......MUST NOT BITE.........

[legov]

The distinction between the demolition of ideas and beliefs must be contrasted with the attacks on religious PEOPLE. the two are not the same and we must be perpetually on guard against people who would muddy that distinction

Most important part of your post. Amen.

(Woops, sorry.)

I'm not so sure I agree with that:

Does it mean we can criticise paedophelia, but we must be nice to paedophiles?

Voting National Socialist in 1933, did not make one guilty of committing the Holocaust... but it does give you a share of the responsibility for what happened.

Likewise with our religious bretheren... none of them should be without some share of the guilt.

I don't get it. Why should they? If my brother murders someone does that make me somehow culpable for the murder as well?

[A.J.Rimmer]

I don't get it. Why should they? If my brother murders someone does that make me somehow culpable for the murder as well?

If the pair of you showed any joint endeavour which lead to the killing, directly or indirectly, then you would, of course, be to some degree culpable... Yes.

[legov]

The distinction between the demolition of ideas and beliefs must be contrasted with the attacks on religious PEOPLE. the two are not the same and we must be perpetually on guard against people who would muddy that distinction

Most important part of your post. Amen.

(Woops, sorry.)

I'm not so sure I agree with that:

Does it mean we can criticise paedophelia, but we must be nice to paedophiles?

Voting National Socialist in 1933, did not make one guilty of committing the Holocaust... but it does give you a share of the responsibility for what happened.

Likewise with our religious bretheren... none of them should be without some share of the guilt.

I think I went a bit offtrack with my last post. Yes, I concede that people who voted Nazi in the 30s should take up a little of the blame, and I accept similarly that religious people should be criticised.

But the point Norton was trying to make, I think, was that only their beliefs should be criticised, not their personalities or character or moral alignment.

It's like scientific debate, really - if I disagree with someone else's theory, I criticise it, and I might even feel strongly enough about my own views to judge him stupid. But it has nought to do with my opponent's sense of right and wrong, or their integrity etc etc. The same I'd say applies for Nazi voters in the 30's (paedophiles, errr, not so much)