Gym Routine

[tarjei]

1 hour ago, JB said:

I suggest you check your sources then, dude. Gary Taubes does not count. He is a quack and a charlatan who has even stated in public that if research proved him wrong (which it has, countless times - even via a study that he funded!) he would not change his mind. You are following/listening to the wrong people who have no scientific integrity. Try Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld, Bret Contreras, Eric Helms, Mike Israetel amongst others. Actual scientists and experts in the field.

I can't be bothered going through everything that's wrong with what you said (and it is almost literally everything) but there are so many basic logical fallacies that I can't believe that you've thought about what you've said. 

By far the worst is talking about the "high quality fats" in and fat burning properties of Bulletproof Coffee (TM), which for the uninitiated is normal coffee with added BUTTER and COCONUT OIL - two of the most calorie dense foods available. How does adding 600 calories nutrient-poor foods to coffee help people burn fat?! That is a third of the average woman's daily calories. Nonsense of the highest order that actually pisses me off!  The 'eat fat to burn fat' has been thoroughly debunked, as have magical voodoo properties of coconut oil.

Eating carbs causes less satiety?!? Are you actually joking? Eating food causes you to feel less full does it? 

Coming onto a forum like this where there are beginners and people looking to learn and repeating the stuff that you have with such absolute certainty is, quite frankly, dangerous and I'd advise anybody reading to ignore every single word. 

The answer to fat loss is energy balance. It's that simple.

Thanks for replying. I see no logical fallacies, but I wouldn't be upset if you found some and pointed it out. Saying everything is wrong is kinda strange in my view. Maybe I live in a info-bubble, maybe you live in another.

Yes, coconut oil or MCT oil. It's not 600 calories, but that's not really the point. The point is to have it is instead of other food to prolong the state that your body has started while not eating overnight. It does keep you from feeling hunger and will not trigger insulin release.

As for satiety, maybe my understanding of the language is not correct here. By satiety I meant fullness. Carbs might make you feel full just as fat, but for a far shorter period of time. This is really something that you can test for yourself and experience. When I ate bread and pasta I would get hungry within a few hours of eating. I would crave for stuff constantly. After removing that from my diet I can go a full day without even thinking about food and I usually do a fast each day for 16-20 hours. That is unless I'm trying to put on weight. 

I believe it because I've seen the effect on myself and others. And I'm not telling people to go full keto.. I'm just saying eat less carbs and try intermittent fasting. 

I agree though @Stevo985 - it quickly becomes a bit too complicated. I'm quite happy to not talk about this anymore on here.

Edited March 22, 2017 by tarjei

[sexbelowsound]

6 minutes ago, tarjei said:

Thanks for replying. I see no logical fallacies, but I wouldn't be upset if you found some and pointed it out. Saying everything is wrong is kinda strange in my view. Maybe I live in a info-bubble, maybe you live in another.

Yes, coconut oil or MCT oil. It's not 600 calories, but that's not really the point. The point is to have it is instead of other food to prolong the state that your body has started while not eating overnight. It does keep you from feeling hunger and will not trigger insulin release.

As for satiety, maybe my understanding of the language is not correct here. By satiety I meant fullness. Carbs might make you feel full just as fat, but for a far shorter period of time. This is really something that you can test for yourself and experience. When I ate bread and pasta I would get hungry within a few hours of eating. I would crave for stuff constantly. After removing that from my diet I can go a full day without even thinking about food and I usually do a fast each day for 16-20 hours. That is unless I'm trying to put on weight. 

I believe it because I've seen the effect on myself and others. And I'm not telling people to go full keto.. I'm just saying eat less carbs and try intermittent fasting. 

I agree though @Stevo985 - it quickly becomes a bit too complicated. I'm quite happy to not talk about this anymore on here.

Forgive me if i've misunderstood here but are you suggesting that ingesting MCT oil which is high in calories will not break your fasted state?

[tarjei]

1 minute ago, sexbelowsound said:

Forgive me if i've misunderstood here but are you suggesting that ingesting MCT oil which is high in calories will not break your fasted state?

No, no, it will break a fasted state. The state I'm referring to is ketosis.

[sexbelowsound]

2 minutes ago, tarjei said:

No, no, it will break a fasted state. The state I'm referring to is ketosis.

Would your body not then start burning the calories you've just taken in rather than continuing to burn stored body fat?

[tarjei]

Just now, sexbelowsound said:

Would your body not then start burning the calories you've just taken in rather than continuing to burn stored body fat?

Yes, kinda. It gets a bit complicated very quickly. I'll post a link to a very interesting article below. The point is you will not feel hungry for a good while and still be in ketosis, so if you have a workout before breaking it you will be burning directly from your fat stores.

http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

Quote

 

....Although a calorie is a calorie as the food sits on your plate, when it enters your body it is introduced to a highly complex organism that has many biochemical processes that will use, store and “dump” the calories in your food in different ways. The notion that we are just a simple calorie formula, adding and subtracting calories from a predetermined daily energy expenditure by nature is a fundamental flaw in how we perceive food and go about weight management. In a clear and concise statement, a calorie is a calorie but the nutrients of the food and your individual biochemistry dictate how your body expresses those calories.

I have always been a sceptic of the efficacy of calories use in how we interact with food, as I have always thought that I eat more than I burn yet remain the same weight and waist measurement. With this in mind I decided to take action on this challenging question by conducting a 21 day experiment where I ate 5,794 calories of a high fat low carb diet of natural foods to see if I put on as much weight as the calorie formula says I should.

 

 

[JB]

1 hour ago, tarjei said:

Thanks for replying. I see no logical fallacies, but I wouldn't be upset if you found some and pointed it out. Saying everything is wrong is kinda strange in my view. Maybe I live in a info-bubble, maybe you live in another.

Yes, coconut oil or MCT oil. It's not 600 calories, but that's not really the point. The point is to have it is instead of other food to prolong the state that your body has started while not eating overnight. It does keep you from feeling hunger and will not trigger insulin release.

As for satiety, maybe my understanding of the language is not correct here. By satiety I meant fullness. Carbs might make you feel full just as fat, but for a far shorter period of time. This is really something that you can test for yourself and experience. When I ate bread and pasta I would get hungry within a few hours of eating. I would crave for stuff constantly. After removing that from my diet I can go a full day without even thinking about food and I usually do a fast each day for 16-20 hours. That is unless I'm trying to put on weight. 

I believe it because I've seen the effect on myself and others. And I'm not telling people to go full keto.. I'm just saying eat less carbs and try intermittent fasting. 

I agree though @Stevo985 - it quickly becomes a bit too complicated. I'm quite happy to not talk about this anymore on here.

Sorry if I sounded a bit disrespectful or aggressive in my original reply. 

I still maintain that you and the people who you get your information from are spectacularly incorrect. They have been proved as such by science. Google Taubes's debates with Alan Aragon.

I thought I did point out a logical fallacy? You didn't mention that Bulletproof Coffee, as well as containing coconut oil (2 tbsps - roughly 250kcals) also contains butter (2 tbsps - roughly 220kcals). It is a logical fallacy to suggest that such an energy-dense beverage (ok not necessarily quite 600kcals but will still often take up to a third of a person's daily calorie allowance) can help people lose fat. It's against the laws of thermodynamics and is simply wrong. I'd rather have a Frijj. Nothing except consuming fewer calories than you use 'burns' fat.

To quote Alan Aragon (check out his monthly research review): 

"There's only one thing as dumb as calling a 500 kcal cup of coffee with butter & MCT oil a fat-burning beverage: actually believing it."

It is annoying that people believe in things like this. It is fundamentally untrue. Dave Asprey is a crook. 

You're right, there are information bubbles but I'm sorry, the one you're speaking from is wrong and needs to be challenged. However, I wouldn't for a second deny that I've believed some absolute cobblers in the past.

Edited March 22, 2017 by JB

[markavfc40]

@tarjei out of interest mate have you followed this ketogenic diet that you have suggested and what results have you had? details of when you started, BF% from then to now, weight loss or gain, if you have gained strength etc

 

[tarjei]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

@tarjei out of interest mate have you followed this ketogenic diet that you have suggested and what results have you had? details of when you started, BF% from then to now, weight loss or gain, if you have gained strength etc

If you are interested in reading about it I suggest you have a look at r/keto on reddit. Lots of people over there share their stories and transformation. A couple of really impressive ones on the front page as we speak, 40 kg in 4 months in example. Some with more details than others. Many people post full scans, blood work, etc. Also lots of more in-depth articles and post on r/ketoscience and for those training weights there is r/ketogains.

I did it for about 4-5 months starting fall last year and ending a little over a month ago. I didn't track BF% other than visibly seeing the difference. At a guess it was around 15-17% to start with. The first month I payed close attention to my macros, but after that I did 'lazy keto' and intermittent fasting. Eating however much I felt like whenever I felt hungry.

I'm not fat. So the goal for me was not to lose weight. My goal was just to get rid of the belly fat that had started to accumulate and I couldn't seem to shed. I'm 188cm. When I started on keto I was around 75 kg and stayed around 73-76kg for the whole period.

I decided not long ago to up my carbs intake so that I could gain a bit more mass. I've been eating carbs for about a month now, although limiting it to natural foods like fruits, veggies, potatoes, legumes, etc. Now I'm 80-81kg with almost no visible fat left. When I got back on carbs I quickly gained a lot of weight, but I attribute most of that to water weight. You have the opposite effect when you go on ketogenic diet. As glycogen is spent and fiber is expelled it's common to lose 3-5 kg of water in the first few days.

My goal is to hit as close to 90kg as I can manage without putting on too much fat and then going back to maintain on a ketogenic diet. At a guess I'm eating 50-100g carbs a day now and it's working out rather well, except for one thing.

The effect that I didn't expect from the diet was that it made my stomach work like a well oiled machine. On carbs I'm bloated, full of gasses, have to go to the toilet 2-3 times a day and it's all very inconsistent. A mild form of IBS according to the doctor. Something I can't handle, not sure what. But that all went away. Sorry to go into so much detail but I hardly had a fart a day on keto and my toilet visits was only every 2-3 days, and a great success every time

1 hour ago, JB said:

Sorry if I sounded a bit disrespectful or aggressive in my original reply. 

I still maintain that you and the people who you get your information from are spectacularly incorrect. They have been proved as such by science. Google Taubes's debates with Alan Aragon.

I thought I did point out a logical fallacy? You didn't mention that Bulletproof Coffee, as well as containing coconut oil (2 tbsps - roughly 250kcals) also contains butter (2 tbsps - roughly 220kcals). It is a logical fallacy to suggest that such an energy-dense beverage (ok not necessarily quite 600kcals but will still often take up to a third of a person's daily calorie allowance) can help people lose fat. It's against the laws of thermodynamics and is simply wrong. I'd rather have a Frijj. Nothing except consuming fewer calories than you use 'burns' fat.

To quote Alan Aragon (check out his monthly research review): 

"There's only one thing as dumb as calling a 500 kcal cup of coffee with butter & MCT oil a fat-burning beverage: actually believing it."

It is annoying that people believe in things like this. It is fundamentally untrue. Dave Asprey is a crook. 

You're right, there are information bubbles but I'm sorry, the one you're speaking from is wrong and needs to be challenged. However, I wouldn't for a second deny that I've believed some absolute cobblers in the past.

Not at all, mate. If I'm being brain washed I would be very happy to be told so. I just don't think I am.. but I'll look in to those debates. I'm well familiar with Taubes by now of course and many others, but not Aspey. I did read a book by Noakes and one by Jason Fung though, I'm sure you think they are the devil's servants, hehe

With regard to the BP-coffee argument I feel like you (and with the quote from Aragon) are misunderstanding the whole point. We could probably go back and forth on it all day. I don't believe it's some magic trick or anything. Of course a table spoon or two of oils has lots of calories. You still have to keep within a caloric deficit to lose weight... the points I'm trying to get across is 1) on a high fat diet you are not getting hungry the same way you are if you are consuming carbs and 2) fat will allow you to feel full over a long period of time while not breaking ketosis, which is a state that is great for the body to be in if your goal is to burn stored fat in stead of glycogen. 

Sorry if I have stirred up the hive a bit and clogged this thread with what seems like gibberish. Someone new to all this really shouldn't be having to read it. I've read so much on this stuff the last 6 months or so that I kinda forget it's a controversial subject and contrary to the status quo of the food pyramid. I'm also no expert on biology or nutrition and I wouldn't put it past me to be fooled. So you are right, I should be more careful about this stuff. I'll keep it to myself from now, unless others have questions about it.

Edited March 23, 2017 by tarjei

[markavfc40]

@tarjei Cheers for the detailed response mate. You have clearly had results from this as it appears have many others.

I think my biggest issue with diets like this and the Atkins diet is the kind of food it allows/encourages you to consume just isn’t healthy. Or maybe that is just my ignorance and an ingrained way of thinking.

At the end of the day though whatever diet you are on if it is giving you the results you want be it to lose weight, gain weight, increase strength, reduce body fat, increase energy/endurance then that is the bottom line.

I definitely think for someone just starting out though the best thing you can do is keep things simple and just follow some basic principles.

[Stevo985]

10 hours ago, tarjei said:

 

I agree though @Stevo985 - it quickly becomes a bit too complicated. I'm quite happy to not talk about this anymore on here.

For a beginner or someone purely focused on losing fat it's way too complicated. 

[tarjei]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I definitely think for someone just starting out though the best thing you can do is keep things simple and just follow some basic principles.

Yes, I think we can all agree on that. I didn't realize it would spark a debate, really, and I regret mentioning it as it triggered my anxiety a bit. Couldn't get much sleep as my mind was occupied by ruminating thoughts.

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I think my biggest issue with diets like this and the Atkins diet is the kind of food it allows/encourages you to consume just isn’t healthy. Or maybe that is just my ignorance and an ingrained way of thinking.

For a very easy introduction there is a documentary on the subject freely available on youtube called CarbLoaded if you are interested. I guess with JB's perspective in mind and the fact a few of the names he mentions makes an appearance, skepticism is probably a good friend when watching it. It's not about ketogenic diets specifically but deals with how the current nutritional beliefs came about, the effects it has had on society and there is a lot of info on how the body responds to foods, but explained in a very simplistic manner.

[sexbelowsound]

Not to deviate from the topic of carbs vs fat but does anyone have any suggestions on improving grip strength?

Yesterday I was doing rack pulls which I don't do nearly as often as I should. I worked my way up to sets of 5 at 160kg however when I did my second set at this weight I had to reset my grip between reps because I couldn't hold the bar.

I don't think chalk is the answer here and i'd rather not be using wrist wraps at such a light weight. I've introduced forearm work again recently but is there anything else anyone knows of that is worth a try?

[ruaryvilla]

Barbell Shrugged latest podcast is all about grip strength, personally the only thing I've found that helps is hanging from a pull up bar

[V01]

Farmers walks seem to be the universal answer, 2 plate pinches are supposed to be good too. You grip 2 plates between thumb and two fingers for as long as you can, rips up your fingers until you form calluses though. Could also do Rack pulls but holding until your grip fails. 

[sexbelowsound]

Maybe doing lighter weight at higher reps might help build up my grip endurance for want of a better phrase. I'll try these things out.

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 hour ago, sexbelowsound said:

Not to deviate from the topic of carbs vs fat but does anyone have any suggestions on improving grip strength?

Yesterday I was doing rack pulls which I don't do nearly as often as I should. I worked my way up to sets of 5 at 160kg however when I did my second set at this weight I had to reset my grip between reps because I couldn't hold the bar.

I don't think chalk is the answer here and i'd rather not be using wrist wraps at such a light weight. I've introduced forearm work again recently but is there anything else anyone knows of that is worth a try?

As pointed out below, farmers walk is good (if feasible in your gym) as well as plate pinches.  Perhaps doing more deadlift/ rack pull work will help, also bar holds with the fattest barbell in the gym can help. Another thing you can do is buy some grip builders (aka Hand Grip Strengtheners).

 

[villaglint]

Just to add something else to the mix. How about going climbing? Indoor or out nothing better to build your grip strength. Good for your mobility/flexibility as well. 

If you have access to finger board they are good too. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by villaglint

[sexbelowsound]

1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

As pointed out below, farmers walk is good (if feasible in your gym) as well as plate pinches.  Perhaps doing more deadlift/ rack pull work will help, also bar holds with the fattest barbell in the gym can help. Another thing you can do is buy some grip builders (aka Hand Grip Strengtheners).

 

Farmers walks should be easy enough. Got some reasonably heavy dumbbells at my gym and enough space. 

I'll try them all out. I'm sure grip strength will come with more practice but i'd like to actively work on improving it rather than it being a byproduct. 

[villaglint]

Yeah I've never used chalk, straps in the gym because I want to better my grip even if it means I'm slightly down on what I could otherwise lift. I've got quite into climbing in the last few years and you can never have enough grip strength for that. 

It is staggering how strong some decent climbers are when it comes to grip. 

[tarjei]

@JBI watched a couple of videos with Alan Aragon. Got any recommendation of what to look at or read? From the interview I saw I don't disagree with him at all. He basically talked about carbs being important for high intensity training and athletes. He said weight loss were equal if you took into account the protein intake. Now, not considering Taubes in this as he takes it a bit far, Aragon doesn't really talk about people struggling with obesity, are pre-diabetic, etc. He's talking about people who have their diet in order and need to fine tune it for best results. That's the first impression anyway.

I don't really see a problem in accepting that both diets have their benefits and drawbacks for different situations.