Woodytom Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Yes I know, he got found out once Young and Downing left and teams wised up to him the following season. You can't deny though he was brilliant as unknown quantity between August-December 2010, Evra didn't have a clue who he was and got annihilated in the Man. United game. Perhaps he wasn't given long enough in the right environment to develop properly? There is only so far you can go and sheer effort and being an unknown quantity. I have no idea what we do with our youth in their transition to the first team, but what we have done in the past seems to be fundamentally flawed as their development hits a brick wall quite dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I reiterate my point that there is very little evidence to support the belief in this kid. So other than hear say/YouTube, I'm not sure what ppl are basing it on? Could you not say this about every single youth player until they start playing on a regular basis? The evidence is the fact he's performed brilliantly at every level of football he's played in. The fact he's played above his age group throughout his time as a football player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Let me get this right....we can't win, we can't score, we can't even get any shots on target and there's people in our current situation who think Grealish isn't even good enough for the bench. By this logic, we should play the entire u21 team.You still have to be good enough. Maybe Grealish just isn't. Yet.And how can we see that if he never really plays or just get a short period at the end of a game?Again, you could say this about any player not currently in the squad.It's Salifou syndrome.I'm not calling for him to start games every single week but maybe it's something that needs to be done with our lack of creativity. Remember when we threw Albrighton in and he was excellent for 5 months? What I see every week is we're dire to watch, hardly create anything and don't often score so I don't think Grealish would do much worse, I really don't.Our last bench at West Ham had two centre backs and two utility players on it, you can't be serious when you're saying there's no room on the bench.And what happened with albrighton? He was an option, thought he was decent last season and I for one was disappointed we let him go. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I reiterate my point that there is very little evidence to support the belief in this kid. So other than hear say/YouTube, I'm not sure what ppl are basing it on? Could you not say this about every single youth player until they start playing on a regular basis? The evidence is the fact he's performed brilliantly at every level of football he's played in. The fact he's played above his age group throughout his time as a football player. But you could say that about all youth players that have come through and turned out to be shite. Quite how a team of players can batter arsenal 10-1, and then every single one of them turns out to be pants, I do not know. We've never had a player enter the First team and make an immediate impact like Rooney did or Owen etc. That's the sign that they are a top player and for some reason, we never ever produce them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 How long did it take bale to have an impact on games? Grealish might not be the next Owen or Rooney. I don't know what that's got to do with any argument. No one thinks he's going to be at the level of those 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 How long did it take bale to have an impact on games? Grealish might not be the next Owen or Rooney. I don't know what that's got to do with any argument. No one thinks he's going to be at the level of those 2. Some have indicated it however, the point is that grealish's time in the first team has indicated that he will follow suit with the rest of our youth players. And tbh, why would he be any different? I'm not saying he needs to be as good as Rooney or Owen (tho it amazes me that we seem to get excited about players who aren't going to be anywhere near the very top), I'm simply saying that it's about time, we had a player come through where by they came into the first team and we were left with no doubt at all that he was going to be the real deal, especially, given the way out academy has been talked up over the past decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 He's made 4 sub appearances this season and you're writing him off? And like I said, using your argument you'd have stopped bale playing and developing because he wasn't having a huge impact on games. You seem to have an issue with our production of youth players, fair enough it hasn't been good enough, but you seem to want to criticise Jack and anyone excited by him to justify your disappointment with all other academy players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 How long did it take bale to have an impact on games? Grealish might not be the next Owen or Rooney. I don't know what that's got to do with any argument. No one thinks he's going to be at the level of those 2. (tho it amazes me that we seem to get excited about players who aren't going to be anywhere near the very top), More talking down of fans based on nothing but your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 How long did it take bale to have an impact on games? Grealish might not be the next Owen or Rooney. I don't know what that's got to do with any argument. No one thinks he's going to be at the level of those 2. (tho it amazes me that we seem to get excited about players who aren't going to be anywhere near the very top), More talking down of fans based on nothing but your opinion. So being surprised by people's actions/thoughts is talking them down - ok? So when people say: I'm amazed there are still supporters who back lambert. Is that talking them down? Notice, I used the word 'we' indicating I've incorporated myself in that as indeed I too have been guilty of getting over excited by youth players in the past, based on nothing. Am I talking myself down? I think it's a reasonable point to question why anyone would be overly excited by a player who so far has shown no indication that he's going to be any better than we've already got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 He's made 4 sub appearances this season and you're writing him off? And like I said, using your argument you'd have stopped bale playing and developing because he wasn't having a huge impact on games. You seem to have an issue with our production of youth players, fair enough it hasn't been good enough, but you seem to want to criticise Jack and anyone excited by him to justify your disappointment with all other academy players. I haven't written anyone off. I purely saying that I have seen nothing to indicate he is going to make any improvement to the team. I'm not sat here saying he's garbage or won't for defo make it) I'm purely putting a debate across as to why he may not be in the side. And the fact that whilst he won't make it any worse, he doesn't appear to make it any better either is a decent enough reason for him not to be in it when you consider that our usual strategy of throwing youth in the middle of shite, has failed dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 the point is that grealish's time in the first team has indicated that he will follow suit with the rest of our youth players This certainly sounds like you're writing him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 the point is that grealish's time in the first team has indicated that he will follow suit with the rest of our youth players This certainly sounds like you're writing him off. Well, it does indicate that. I'm not sure that anyone can argue with that based on the minimal time he has been given. That's not writing him off thought, that's forming an opinion of what I have seen so far which leads me to have the opinion that if we continue to mix him with a barrel load of shite (as we normally do with our youth) then there is nothing to suggest he will develop. In 'writing him off' (as you put it), I'm actually suggesting we take a different approach to what we normally do with potential talent, a different approach to what most are crying out for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Well, it does indicate that. I'm not sure that anyone can argue with that based on the minimal time he has been given. It doesn't indicate anything. Using this logic Danny Cadamateri would have gone on to be the worlds best player and Gareth bale would drop down the league. He's made 4 substitute appearances so far this season, using that to indicate what his whole career is going to look like seems a bit daft to me.That's not writing him off thought, that's forming an opinion of what I have seen so far which leads me to have the opinion that if we continue to mix him with a barrel load of shite (as we normally do with our youth) then there is nothing to suggest he will develop. If he's good enough he'll develop. And how does sitting in the stands help his development?In 'writing him off' (as you put it), I'm actually suggesting we take a different approach to what we normally do with potential talent, a different approach to what most are crying out for. What's your approach for developing Jack Grealish as a player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 It feels weird, ten, twenty years ago players were being released into the Premiership aged 16,17,18 and I don't just mean Rooney and Owen. Now it feels like no-one can be risked until they are 22/23 and had at least had three lower league loans or come from a different league or outside of this country. It is hard to dispute that Grealish has the raw ability to be very special. People look at the Hull game and saw how he was hacked down repeatedly. But look at his time a Notts County dealing with a much more physical league and players, you can be sure he was smashed all over the place by cloggers with no semblence of skill or timing (not all players obviously). Dropping him into struggling team is probably not a good plan of action, but bringing him off the bench and seeing what he can do surely can't harm. At the moment Lambert is too reluctant to play Cole, Okore and Grealish and when we are as bad as we are this makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Yes I know, he got found out once Young and Downing left and teams wised up to him the following season. You can't deny though he was brilliant as unknown quantity between August-December 2010, Evra didn't have a clue who he was and got annihilated in the Man. United game. Perhaps he wasn't given long enough in the right environment to develop properly? There is only so far you can go and sheer effort and being an unknown quantity. I have no idea what we do with our youth in their transition to the first team, but what we have done in the past seems to be fundamentally flawed as their development hits a brick wall quite dramatically. Of that I agree with you Woody, Albrighton was great for those few months but we should've rotated him a bit more rather than playing him every week, as he then struggled in the second half of the season. When you see how well Downing is playing in the hole for West Ham, it was a waste not playing him there when he was here instead of Young, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Well, it does indicate that. I'm not sure that anyone can argue with that based on the minimal time he has been given. It doesn't indicate anything. Using this logic Danny Cadamateri would have gone on to be the worlds best player and Gareth bale would drop down the league. He's made 4 substitute appearances so far this season, using that to indicate what his whole career is going to look like seems a bit daft to me. That's not writing him off thought, that's forming an opinion of what I have seen so far which leads me to have the opinion that if we continue to mix him with a barrel load of shite (as we normally do with our youth) then there is nothing to suggest he will develop. If he's good enough he'll develop. And how does sitting in the stands help his development? In 'writing him off' (as you put it), I'm actually suggesting we take a different approach to what we normally do with potential talent, a different approach to what most are crying out for. What's your approach for developing Jack Grealish as a player? 1) I'm not just using 4 appearances though. And whilst your point regarding bale etc is a fair one, it doesn't acknowledge my main reason for my thought process which is Aston villa, who consistently fail in there development of youth players over the last decade or so. Something is fundamentally wrong as the raw talent is clearly there, however we never ever maximise that. 2) while sitting in the stands won't develop him as a player, I don't believe throwing him in as poor a team as your likely to find at this level will develop him either. If anything, playing in this team would likely demolish his confidence and cause him to lose any form of identity he has as a player. 3) I don't have one. It's not my job and I don't get paid a hell of a lot of money to develop one. Paul lambert and his coaching staff do however, and right now whatever they do do at aston villa with youth, it simply doesn't work. There are major issues at this club from top to bottom. I messaged MM in 2010, when I got wind that something was very wrong. When he replied telling me it was rotten to the core, I had absolutely no idea it would get as bad as it is. I don't have the answers, but I don't believe jack grealish is it. I think choosing to develop with the shambolic mess that aston villa are in was probably the worst decision he could have made, because before we sort out the mess, developing our youth successfully will be very very difficult IMO. And I think it will take years to sort this out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Keane is blaming Jack's dad for the delay over the decision about his international future it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodigan Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 jack is an interesting case for me.... whenever I've watched him play live, he has lit it up at the standard that he has played at.... having said that, I immediately think of the players who have also done that - albrighton, bannan, Daniel Johnson, zoltan steiber, gary gardner, Nathan delfouneso, harry forrester, not to mention the defensive players, Ciaran, Nathan baker, janoi... make no mistake at junior / reserve levels, these players were exceptional - head and shoulders above their teammates and the oppositions I have seen them play.... how many of those can we say were proven good enough over time.... the problem with jack is that every week he doesn't play and the team struggles, his ability to impact the team appears to increase... if we think a few seasons back to the introductions on bannan and gardner (the closest two comparisons I can think of in terms of creativity) and how underwhelming they were, and while they were well anticipated, there was nowhere near the hype surrounding those two as there is around young jack... i'm all in favour for him coming through and becoming a villa legend - I also trust the management in managing his development properly - this is one that all of the villa management will want to get right, particularly having seen a number of young promising careers go sideways - albrighton, bannan, gardner, Bennett, lowton, luna, tonev, the large fella with the Mohawk from Clermont foot whose name completely evades me, and others I can't think of from the top of my head... I also don't think this will be a decision lambert is making in isolation - sid and others in the support setup will be providing input... finally, I also note that the decision is not made solely in the interests of the development of jack, but also bearing in mind what the management think is best for the club as a whole... at least on the positive side, when he's been on the bench, PL has had the balls to play him, which gives me hope that his time will come.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Huge decision for Jack regarding his international future, why should he be rushed into a decision. Keane should wind his neck in on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 I hope Keane's role here and at Ireland is not the reason grealish has now been left out of the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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