Global Warming

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Nah not buying it.

 

Give us counter evidence then, or do you just repeat any old shit that fits your world view?

[colhint]

 

We may not have the cheapest wholesale, I don't know, where did you get your info? But the EU energy portal, reports on prices to customer. That's where I got my prices from

http://www.energy.eu/

Secondly they are not just building new more efficient energy plants, which will take years to be ready. They are re commissioning existing plants which run on Lignite.

Last year Energy from Lignite, was at it's highest level in germany for nearly 25 years.

Is it harming their economy, Well they are being investigated by the EU, because to forestall job losses they are exempting companies who depend on electricity (I can't think of any company that doesn't depend on Electricity) from paying any green taxes.. This is quite clearly against both EU green laws and competition laws.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21594336-germanys-new-super-minister-energy-and-economy-has-his-work-cut-out-sunny-windy-costly

So I would say yes it is harming their economy, wouldn't you?

My argument is that no significant harm is being felt. Of course the transition to renewables isn't pain free. But to put it in perspective europe's largest economy recorded larger than expected growth in 2013.

Germany's co2 emissions are actually going down because they're producing more energy from less coal.

In this country we have higher energy prices, before tax, so unlike Germany our country isn't generating much tax revenue from household energy bills. Our government isn't gearing for a future without fossil fuels. Germany is.

People are looking closely at them, waiting for it to fail, looking for cracks. Vested interests want it to fail. We should look at Germany, learn from the mistakes. But ultimately we need to be on their path, not the path we are on.

 

 

I have to disagree. The EU energy portal records the prices the consumer pays. That quite clearly has the uk significantly lower than Germany. 

As for CO2 emissions going down

 

well 

 

Business green reports that Germany is going up. 

 

http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2271203/uk-and-germany-see-co2-emissions-from-energy-rise-over-2012

 

 

It also reports it has the highest emissions in Europe 

 

Der Spiegel reports how Germany is trying to block any EU co2  reduction deals

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germany-delays-eu-decision-on-lower-co2-emissions-for-cars-a-908176.html

 

They are not producing less CO2 because they are producing more energy from less coal. It is quite the reverse. They are producing less energy from more coal, using lignite brown coal. Germany has the Largest deposits of this type in the world. It is often called dirty fuel. 

 

I still don't buy the no harm is being done. Der spigel report on some of the German Automobile industry thinking of moving out of Europe. 

And the EU energy portal states that Germans now pay the second highest fuel prices in Europe

[colhint]

Nah not buying it. Funny how most of the scientists who say its man made are government appointed. Its blown out of all proportion to give the government a reason to tax us even more.

Cows produce way more co2 then humans, so blame the cows innit.

 

I'm sure this is said, tongue in cheek

[mjmooney]

 

Nah not buying it. Funny how most of the scientists who say its man made are government appointed. Its blown out of all proportion to give the government a reason to tax us even more.

Cows produce way more co2 then humans, so blame the cows innit.

 

I'm sure this is said, tongue in cheek

 

 

I'm not. Have seen any of Donnie's other posts? 

[PaulC]

and the scientists are not government appointed either

[blandy]

I also think it's man made, but only to a point, I think part of it is natural. I can't decide how much is man made and how much is natural.

what does "natural" mean? Because when you think about it, we need to understand what that seemingly clear phrase means. Does it mean that the suns activities are doing it?

If so then why in the last 35 years have solar activity and climate have been going in opposite directions? Or does it mean El Niño? but there's no trend to El Niños as there is with the global temperature. I could go on for ages, bit by bit looking at various factors which could be assumed to be the "natural" things that people might mean. But the thing is the scientists have already done that. The volume of work and study and evidence is immense on all this.

Just on methane and cows, yes methane does have some low impact and it will be much more of a factor if/ when the permafrost starts melting.

[colhint]

That's the bit I can't work out. Are scientists saying it is 100% man made, and no other influence. I'm no expert on this at all. So I don't know, but I have no reason to doubt the scientists. 

[CrackpotForeigner]

But does it really matter if it's 100%, or 90%, or even 40%? Point is we're screwing up the planet and something will have to change or we'll end up with: A Screwed Planet.

[PaulC]

That's the bit I can't work out. Are scientists saying it is 100% man made, and no other influence. I'm no expert on this at all. So I don't know, but I have no reason to doubt the scientists. 

 

well 95% but yes I agree with CrackpotForeigner the % is not important we need to do something about it and as Govts are now more concerned about money its unlikely much will be done until its too late.

[mjmooney]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but it's well worth a viewing: 

 

 

 

[Condimentalist]

 

I also think it's man made, but only to a point, I think part of it is natural. I can't decide how much is man made and how much is natural.

what does "natural" mean? Because when you think about it, we need to understand what that seemingly clear phrase means. Does it mean that the suns activities are doing it?

If so then why in the last 35 years have solar activity and climate have been going in opposite directions? Or does it mean El Niño? but there's no trend to El Niños as there is with the global temperature. I could go on for ages, bit by bit looking at various factors which could be assumed to be the "natural" things that people might mean. But the thing is the scientists have already done that. The volume of work and study and evidence is immense on all this.

Just on methane and cows, yes methane does have some low impact and it will be much more of a factor if/ when the permafrost starts melting.

 

 

It's also interesting the idea that humans and 'nature' are somehow separate, as if we have evolved so far as to leave all that nonsense behind.

 

On cows (and sheep), the issue is not only methane but nitrous oxide, both of which are hugely more powerful greenhouse gasses than CO2, although they have a far shorter half-life. Overall the livestock industry is responsible for anything between 20-55% of all anthropogenic GHG emissions, therefore if you are concerned about the environment, cutting down on your meat (esp. red meat) and dairy consumption is one of the most effective steps you can take as a consumer.

[MakemineVanilla]

But does it really matter if it's 100%, or 90%, or even 40%? Point is we're screwing up the planet and something will have to change or we'll end up with: A Screwed Planet.

 

I think that is the wrong conclusion which the man-made climate change advocates knowingly lead us towards: the damage is already done.

 

The truth according to head scientist at the Met Office, Julia Slingo, is that there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop man-made climate change, and anything we do now will produce no effect for thirty years or more.

 

So basically it is too late to stop the effects of the green-house gases which have already been out into the atmosphere.

 

Worse still, the likes of Slingo have absolutely no idea what the outcome for this country will be and so we are in no position to protect ourselves against whatever is to come.

 

Obviously those who are trying to persuade the electorate to mandate the spending of billions of pounds trying to hold back, Canute-like, these changes, are not in the business of telling us these things because most people would not want to pay for what they can't change, in some unknown distant future beyond their own death.

 

Carbon sequestration seems like the obvious answer but are we knowledgeable or confident enough to tinker with a climate system, we understand is chaotic. 

[mjmooney]

[MakemineVanilla]

[Kingfisher]

We may not have the cheapest wholesale, I don't know, where did you get your info? But the EU energy portal, reports on prices to customer. That's where I got my prices from

http://www.energy.eu/

Secondly they are not just building new more efficient energy plants, which will take years to be ready. They are re commissioning existing plants which run on Lignite.

Last year Energy from Lignite, was at it's highest level in germany for nearly 25 years.

Is it harming their economy, Well they are being investigated by the EU, because to forestall job losses they are exempting companies who depend on electricity (I can't think of any company that doesn't depend on Electricity) from paying any green taxes.. This is quite clearly against both EU green laws and competition laws.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21594336-germanys-new-super-minister-energy-and-economy-has-his-work-cut-out-sunny-windy-costly

So I would say yes it is harming their economy, wouldn't you?

My argument is that no significant harm is being felt. Of course the transition to renewables isn't pain free. But to put it in perspective europe's largest economy recorded larger than expected growth in 2013.

Germany's co2 emissions are actually going down because they're producing more energy from less coal.

In this country we have higher energy prices, before tax, so unlike Germany our country isn't generating much tax revenue from household energy bills. Our government isn't gearing for a future without fossil fuels. Germany is.

People are looking closely at them, waiting for it to fail, looking for cracks. Vested interests want it to fail. We should look at Germany, learn from the mistakes. But ultimately we need to be on their path, not the path we are on.

I have to disagree. The EU energy portal records the prices the consumer pays. That quite clearly has the uk significantly lower than Germany.

As for CO2 emissions going down

well

Business green reports that Germany is going up.

http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2271203/uk-and-germany-see-co2-emissions-from-energy-rise-over-2012

It also reports it has the highest emissions in Europe

Der Spiegel reports how Germany is trying to block any EU co2 reduction deals

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germany-delays-eu-decision-on-lower-co2-emissions-for-cars-a-908176.html

They are not producing less CO2 because they are producing more energy from less coal. It is quite the reverse. They are producing less energy from more coal, using lignite brown coal. Germany has the Largest deposits of this type in the world. It is often called dirty fuel.

I still don't buy the no harm is being done. Der spigel report on some of the German Automobile industry thinking of moving out of Europe.

And the EU energy portal states that Germans now pay the second highest fuel prices in Europe

Here is some info on what's really happening in Germany. Well worth a read.

http://www.renewablesinternational.net/did-co2-emissions-from-german-power-sector-drop-in-2013/150/537/75866/

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

So the Mail and Torygraph have finally caved in and accepted the science*.

 

 

 

 

 

*Slightly convinced that this is an April Fools.

[Xann]

Of all the lies that Exxon leaders told about climate change, none may quite top the 1997 insistence that “it is highly unlikely that the temperature in the middle of the next century will be significantly affected whether policies are enacted now or 20 years from now.”

Exxon scientists knew that was wrong, and so did pretty much everyone else.

Grauniad

The Cat would appear to be out the bag.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Today I saw pictures of 60 elephants that were beheaded by a band of no doubt merry men.

We, as a species, just don't give a ****. There is no one to keep us in check. The lunatics are running the asylum.

[chrissmith921]

 

I think its accelerated by man, but a natural occurance.

 

[MakemineVanilla]

Setting aside the claim that consensus amongst scientists can be taken as proof of anything.

The question as to whether climate change is man-made misleads people into accepting certain assumptions which we are led to believe follow from it.

The worst of these being that if it is proven then our solutions to it are also correct and a worthwhile investment.