Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[Gringo]

Well as people are completing their postal votes today I wonder how many will be swayed by Gordan Gaffgate

I suppose it depends on which party official is helping them fill in their postal form I guess.

[Richard]

Well not alriiight!

[PauloBarnesi]

Well not alriiight!

Neil Kinnock says it 'doesn't look like' Labour can win

Lord Kinnock said Mr Brown has been 'poisonously misrepresented'

Former Labour leader Lord Kinnock has said it "doesn't look like" his party can win the general election, but insists it remains "within reach".

Speaking before Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman" gaffe, he said the prime minister has been "poisonously misrepresented by the press".

Lord Kinnock told the New Statesman magazine Labour was not helped by the fact it had been in power for 13 years.

He added that he was "not as fearful" of a hung parliament as other people.

'Difficult prediction'

The latest poll - Thursday's daily YouGov tracker poll for The Sun - shows the Conservatives up one point on 34%, the Liberal Democrats up three on 31%, and Labour down two on 27%.

Interviewed earlier this week, Lord Kinnock, who was leading Labour when they lost the 1992 general election, said he would not speculate on the possibility of a coalition between Labour and the Liberal Democrats.

"The likely outcome of this election is more difficult to predict than any other in our political life," he added.

Returning to the theme of why Labour was struggling in the polls, he said some in the party had been wrongly "articulating worries" about Mr Brown to the media.

He also said that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan "certainly don't help".

To be fair on Neil he isn’t very good at calling elections, so I am now fully expecting a Labour victory. But Kinnock does seem to have it in for Brown

[TrentVilla]

In a bit of rush so not the time to look back through the thread, can anyone post a link to that policy selector tool that was posted a while back? I think it came from Sky but not sure. Its the one where you select the policies on each issue and it tells you how your beliefs fit with the parties.

[blandy]

vote match available all over the place, Trent

[Reality]

did you not read my request?. Please see previous page and read the site guidelines. Blandy

[kidlewis]

Looks like Merv is trying to tell us we're screwed for a good 20 years perhaps even mrs bigot was correct when she said it would be 'tax tax tax for the next 20 years'

she did look a bit like mervyn king as well.hmmmmm

[Clarry]

Looks like Merv is trying to tell us we're screwed for a good 20 years perhaps even mrs bigot was correct when she said it would be 'tax tax tax for the next 20 years'

she did look a bit like mervyn king as well.hmmmmm

So he's saying whoever wins will only get one term then out for a long time??

[kidlewis]

Looks like Merv is trying to tell us we're screwed for a good 20 years perhaps even mrs bigot was correct when she said it would be 'tax tax tax for the next 20 years'

she did look a bit like mervyn king as well.hmmmmm

So he's saying whoever wins will only get one term then out for a long time??

that is what I thought he meant as well. Basically this election could be a good one to lose, if any of the parties want to tackle the deficit with any kind of conviction and not half arsed.

It will result in cuts and raised taxes to such an extent that we could see various things unravel to screw the country up even more.

I think people who think we are immune to serious failures economically because we 'aren't like greece' are a bit like the people who thought the titanic was unsinkable. Anything could happen in the next couple of years. I think the reason Labour keep harping on about damaging the road to recovery is because there is no plan b and if we head back into recession for whatever reason, we're screwed.

[kiddybloke]

Loving the media and secutiry all over campus today, got the snipers out and everything. Loads of my mates are on various TV and radio channels later! Its a media circus to say the least!

[thetrees]

, got the snipers out and everything.

I wonder how the prize system works?

A boat if they hit Brown

A new kitchen if they hit Cameron

And presumably a rubber 'Bully' if they hit Clegg.

Look on the bright side. Up until a couple of weeks ago a sniper wouldn't have picked Clegg out of a crowd as he wouldn't have know what he looks like

:winkold:

[tonyh29]

don't the lib dems want us in the euro?

another myth spread by those with an anti-europe bias

proof?

how can it be a myth when the lib dems OWN manifesto states :

that the Liberal Democrats believe it is in Britain’s long-term interest to join the Euro

all Clegg has done is say now isn't the time ..

next you'll be saying that Brown didn't call that woman a bigot

[kidlewis]

don't the lib dems want us in the euro?

another myth spread by those with an anti-europe bias

proof?

how can it be a myth when the lib dems OWN manifesto states :

that the Liberal Democrats believe it is in Britain’s long-term interest to join the Euro

all Clegg has done is say now isn't the time ..

next you'll be saying that Brown didn't call that woman a bigot

there you have it. I thought they did, perhaps we should do it so we can get some money off Germany, cos we need it.

[drat01]

We believe that it is in Britain’s long-term interest to be part of the euro.

But Britain should only join when the economic conditions are right, and in

the present economic situation, they are not. Britain should join the euro only

if that decision were supported by the people of Britain in a referendum.

Next Tony you will be saying that it is against the rules to run election things from hospitals - oh you did and where was Dave today?

[drat01]

Britains unfair voting system and why Cameron wont change it?

David Cameron has to come round on electoral reform

Both principle and practicality dictate that Conservatives must rethink their stubborn opposition to proportional representation

Speculation about how far Nick Clegg could push for reform with the Conservatives should take account of the Tories' dogmatic opposition to PR. David Cameron talks irrationally about the power to sack a government, when, in reality, the only voters properly enfranchised in the UK are those in marginal seats – and these have been bought, he hopes, with Lord Ashcroft's millions.

For too many Conservatives, elections are not about democracy or the will of the people: they are about power.

To the international democracy community, Britain is seen as having an arcane attachment not only to a grotesquely unfair electoral system, but also to the hereditary principle in our second chamber. This, too, is supported by many Conservatives. It is doubtful whether international election observers would consider the 6 May general election to be fair, even if it was defined as free.

The UN's code, adopted in 2005, is used by all international observer teams. It states:

"The will of the people of a country is the basis for the authority of government, and that will must be determined through genuine periodic elections, which guarantee the right and opportunity to vote freely and to be elected fairly through universal and equal suffrage by secret balloting or equivalent free voting procedures, the results of which are accurately counted, announced and respected."

Having chaired numerous observer missions, often organised through the EU's Democracy Instrument, which I founded in 1990, I would contend that no stretch of the rules could find our electoral system "fair".

According to the BBC's seat calculator, if each of the major parties gained 30% of the vote, under the UK's grossly-distorted system, the Labour party would get 315 MPs, the Conservatives 206 and the Liberal Democrats only 100. This does not constitute "universal and equal suffrage" for the majority of British voters. It could be argued that the system infringes natural justice, and should be subject to judicial review.

The resurgence of the Lib Dems in recent days has focused public attention on the probability of a balanced parliament, but the debate about electoral reform for Westminster has only just begun. The British public now has the chance, for the first time in generations, to achieve a real political revolution. It is refreshing to see the two-party system under challenge by Nick Clegg, a politician who demonstrates both determination and conviction.

Lest I be accused of coming late to the party of electoral reform, let me point out that, for years, I have argued for fair voting in the UK, as well as a fully-elected second chamber. A handful of Conservatives have, since the 1974 election, waved the flag of PR through Conservative Action for Electoral Reform.

Across the party, there are champions of change, but so far, they speak softly. Proponents of change include Douglas Carswell, so the populist right of Direct Democracy may give Cameron some room for manoeuvre. At last year's Conservative Spring Forum in Cheltenham, I organised and chaired a well-attended fringe meeting on PR. The ostensible purpose was to discuss improvements to the way Euro-elections – held under PR since 1999 – could be conducted, as well as to make the selection process for candidates more fair.

The subsequent Tory Euro-manifesto promised that "a Conservative government will review the European voting system to consider how individual MEPs can be more closely linked to individual constituencies, while respecting the required element of proportionality." My assumption, when I saw this, was that David Cameron's team accepted the EU requirement for a proportional system for Euro-elections.

How to turn this into a principle for Westminster elections?

Unfortunately, Labour's cynical decision to impose closed list PR for Euro-elections, under which people vote for a party, not for individual candidates, has given PR a bad name, and not just in the Tory party. I was leader of the Tory MEPs during the 1999 Euro-election and held a seminar at Central Office, at which Oxford academics Vernon Bogdanor and David Butler spoke of fairness and change. I couldn't get Professor John Curtice to come from Glasgow, but he told me that he had always been astonished by the Conservative reluctance to go for real PR for Westminster, since it would actually give them a significant lift because of their broadly-based support.

There is a need for a national debate about a genuinely fair electoral system, and this election must be the catalyst. Before I fell out with the Conservative party, I discussed with Dominic Grieve, shadow justice secretary, the possibility of setting up a working group on electoral reform.

They'll need it now.

[tonyh29]

Next Tony you will be saying that it is against the rules to run election things from hospitals

Labour used an NHS hospital to launch their manifesto which was party usage and is in fact illegal.

However ALL parties and their leaders visit NHS sites (and schools and community projects)from time to time during a campaign and have been doing so for many elections.

(Clegg went to Kingston hospital on the 17th April for example ..

As far as I am aware Cameron made no political speech at the hospital today. However, I recall that when the Labour Party launched its Manifesto at an NHS hospital that it was purely devoted to political speeches.

What's more it was at a PFI built hospital that will end up costing the taxpayer more than 4 times it original construction cost - hardly something to gloat about...

quick find a deflection ..

[drat01]

Oh Tony - didn't Snowy point out that it wasn't a NHS hospital?

also from the BBC today

On a visit to Birmingham Children's Hospital to highlight his party's plans to create a £200m cancer drugs fund, Mr Cameron said he was nervous and there was "a lot riding" on the debate.

"It's a very important moment in the election and I want to try to get across how we can build a better, stronger economy, that's what it's really about - the future, how we get jobs going, how we get business going.

and why are you using the deflection word again? is that the same as you saying Brown previously?

[Malachite]

I tell you whats beginning to bother me, not the coming election and who will you etc, its the noises that are coming out with great regularity about the mess we are in and the impending doom that's apparently going to overtake the country once this election is over, the fact that this is common knowledge to people like the governor of the bank of England and yet there is no mention of this in anybodies manifesto, quite honestly if we are facing a rough time of cut backs and general hardship then i would prefer they just come out and say it.........Now, not later when there will be obvious accusations of lies and misleading the country.IMO.

[Reality]

He's nervous because in the last two debates he has failed to outline a sensible, coherent Tory economic policy.

He is nervous incase that shows tonight, as it is his last chance really to win a majority. Sink or swim, Mr. C.

[tonyh29]

if we are facing a rough time of cut backs and general hardship then i would prefer they just come out and say it.........

well i guess they have and they haven't .. I guess nobody wants to tell the total truth , apart from when it comes to little old ladies in Rochdale

tonight we are going to see Brown saying we should spend our way out of trouble and Cameron saying we shouldn't .. Clegg will probably just say something about how his party didn't steal and how great thye are ... and be deemed the winner

I expect Brown to go all out on the attack tonight to try and undo the damage he did yesterday .. of course the big problem will be why should anyone believe him and seeing as he is also partly responsible for this mess ..why should anyone trust him

tonight could be the dirty fight we've all been waiitng for ...