wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Although I work in a YOI that contains some of the nastiest scum it is possible to encounter, I am no expert on criminal law (i am not a prison officer btw) However, If Venables has a 'life licence' I think that any transgression of that can lead him back to serve the rest of a 'life' sentence. I wonder if I might comment on conditions in a YOI (the one where I work anyway).In an article referenced by snowychap, the author claimed that prisons in Scotland were harsh (or something like that). Where I work there a 3 categories:- Basic, Standard and Enhanced. prisoners can progress to Enhanced based on their behaviour. An Enhanced prisoner has his own TV in his cell and can have Playstation if he can afford it; also his own curtains and bits like that. There are no computers, thus no internet and no Sky tv, as is sometimes suggested in the press. Personally, I reckon that the regime is too easy and suggest that many of them would spend all day watching tv and playing on a playstation if the were on the out ! Whether the above is suitable punishment for murderers and rapists I will leave you to decide. And some on here claim they have served there punishment?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 i know 2 people who have been to prison. one said he loved it in there (he's a bit of a nutter anyway). the other is a highly paid professional who was wrongly imprisoned - He said that it was easier & more luxurious than he expected, and that he learnt a lot about how to commit crime whilst in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 Having your freedom and childhood removed from you, in one case for quite a length of time, and in another forever, is quite a punishment imo. Just because as a society we've learned to take freedom for granted does not mean that it's not something to be missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Having your freedom and childhood removed from you, in one case for quite a length of time, and in another forever, is quite a punishment imo. Just because as a society we've learned to take freedom for granted does not mean that it's not something to be missed. Lets not forget the crime these two committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Ive had many an argument about this subject down the years. I can't understand a society that would punish kids for the rest of there life for something they did when they were 10. People have been talking about hanging, i mean what type of barbaric state would that make us. I remember when i was 10, beating up kids younger than me and getting beaten up by older kids i was a right little tike, even at 13-14 i was fighting all the time. Now i wouldn't touch a fly. Im one of the most nonviolent person you can ever meet. If anyone can be rehabilitated its a 10 year old child, the Mary Bell case shows this. And we dont and probably wont even know ever know what Venables had done, i think there is about 7 or 8 different guesses at the moment. It must be hell being a 27 your old scouse lad with dark hair in prison ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Having your freedom and childhood removed from you, in one case for quite a length of time, and in another forever, Is that a reference to James Bulger ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 Is that a reference to James Bulger ? No, it's a reference to the loss of childhood that his killers also had taken from them as their (justified, obviously) punishment. To lose that period of your life, a very important period, is a rather larger punishment than I think people realise. Obviously Bulger paid the ultimate price in a despicable act, but I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witton_Lane Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Your entitled to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine, and i would bet that your feelings would change if it was infact you in James Bulgers parents shoes. Well if I were in her shoes the chances are i wouldn't have left my son outside a busy butchers shop to start with but ignoring that , I cant say 100% for sure how i would react , but based on my life experience so far I'd be fairly certain i'm not going to suddenly turn into a killer ... it's one thing to post it on the internet , it's another thing to actually take a life and no disrespect to anyone , i fully understand the sentiment , but none of us are going go out and take a life .... Bingo. I made that point pages ago, and it's a good one. If you're a good parent you don't let toddlers of that age out of your sight. The mother isn't to blame for the crime being commited obviously but it's fair to say had she been a better parent then it wouldn't have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 Having your freedom and childhood removed from you, in one case for quite a length of time, and in another forever, is quite a punishment imo. Just because as a society we've learned to take freedom for granted does not mean that it's not something to be missed. Lets not forget the crime these two committed. Not once have I. No inferration of toleration here thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'd certainly prevent him being able to have children. because chances are he'd end up doing something to them. something bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around. Are you trying to say that their punishment was fitting for the crime they committed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around. Are you trying to say that their punishment was fitting for the crime they committed? No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm here saying that people seem to underestimate the punishment they got. If you wished me to say whether I thought the punishment they got was fitting, then I would say yes it was. As 10 year old children they were given sentences that were to last until, at least, their adulthood, after which they were held on strict life licenses. I think that's quite a harsh punishment for a child, and fitting of the crime. But that's largely because I believe our justice system is pretty good, and also because I don't believe in the death penalty for any one let alone children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 To lose that period of your life, a very important period, is a rather larger punishment than I think people realise. I think you are being a touch patronising to be honest mate. I think everyone is fully aware of the importance of a childhood and is capable of working out that the loss of childhood is a heavy punishment/thing to inflict upon any child. If you think the punishment handed out to these two individuals is/was sufficient for their crime then so be it. Don't though presume to think that because you hold that opinion you are automatically correct in your view point or that others opinions are in any way less valid than yours or that they are some how incapable of weighing up the punishment the two recieved. Obviously Bulger paid the ultimate price in a despicable act, but I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around. You see once again you are trivialising peoples opinions as I've not seen anyone say this. What people are saying is that they don't think the punishment was sufficient for the crime, that may or not be the case but people are entitled to their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think the punishment his killers received is underplayed to the point people seem to think they walked into prison and walked back out after 5 mins of looking around. Are you trying to say that their punishment was fitting for the crime they committed? No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm here saying that people seem to underestimate the punishment they got. If you wished me to say whether I thought the punishment they got was fitting, then I would say yes it was. As 10 year old children they were given sentences that were to last until, at least, their adulthood, after which they were held on strict life licenses. I think that's quite a harsh punishment for a child, and fitting of the crime. But that's largely because I believe our justice system is pretty good, and also because I don't believe in the death penalty for any one let alone children. IMO they have got away with it. They were given a better education than most, 3 meals a day and a roof over there head. And your trying to say the justice system is good?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think you are being a touch patronising to be honest mate. I think everyone is fully aware of the importance of a childhood and is capable of working out that the loss of childhood is a heavy punishment/thing to inflict upon any child. If you think the punishment handed out to these two individuals is/was sufficient for their crime then so be it. Don't though presume to think that because you hold that opinion you are automatically correct in your view point or that others opinions are in any way less valid than yours or that they are some how incapable of weighing up the punishment the two recieved. I don't think I'm automatically correct Trent, I'm not that arrogant. If I come across as patronising then I'm sorry for that but there is this seeming belief they got away with it (see above) and that is, to be perfectly honest, just untrue. You see once again you are trivialising peoples opinions as I've not seen anyone say this. What people are saying is that they don't think the punishment was sufficient for the crime, that may or not be the case but people are entitled to their opinions. And yet above we have someone say they got away with it. I'm not trivialising anything in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 Personally I think the truth lies somewhere between these two posts, I do not generally advocate the death penalty but occasionally, very occasionally crimes are so abhorant my belief wavers. This is often due to the horific nature of a crime or a total lack of remorse for an abhorant crime although I stop short of supporting it even in these instances largelly through a fear of miss carriges of justice. There is always a temptation especially with emotive crimes to lose site of the bigger picture of the justice system in its entirity and when that happens revenge can often be the primary goal rather than justice. In that respect our justice system works and works well. I think the principles that under pin our justice system are good, in fact they are excellent and should under pin all civilised nations criminal justice systems. That said I do feel that there are issues in relation to sentancing which in part I think are determined more by the capacity of our prison service than anything else. My personal view is that while I believe in our system I don't believe that our punishments always fit the crime, a position I think a great deal of society would share. In this particular case I feel that is true but I also feel that in the context of our justice system and other sentances handed out to less emotive crimes the punishment of Venables and Thompson was about correct. That said I would like to see longer prison sentances for a number of crimes, murder being just one of them but that is a thread all of its own. As for the treatment of prisoners I personally feel that it 'appears' that they recieve a rather soft treatment or certainly a far softer treatment than many would wish them to recieve but I guess that is a result of living in such a liberal society. There are few more emotive crimes than the murder of poor little Jamie Bulger and as such its no wonder people differ in relation to the case, the punishment and the latest news of break of license. I think a wide spectrum of opinion is only to be expected and normal especially when the crime itself is so abnormal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 IMO they have got away with it. They were given a better education than most, 3 meals a day and a roof over there head. And your trying to say the justice system is good?!?!? They can't have got away with it, they were tried and convicted and punished. If you feel that treating criminals as less than human (as you seem to suggest they shouldn't have been educated, fed or sheltered in incarceration) then I'm afraid you've a different idea of humanity to me. The justice system is good. It isn't flawless but it's better than most in this world, with a degree of humanity that is not something to be ashamed of. Generally, we believe in rehabilitating most prisoners as well as punishing. There is little point not attempting to rehabilitate people, to say otherwise is to suggest that any crime may as well be a life sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 What he is saying is that for their crime their punishment was not befitting for the crime they carried out. They were treated like kids put into care. An ex-social worker who looked after them for 8 years says they were treated like kids in care, rather than being punished. One of them was allowed to demand drinks of coke etc, and demand it there and then off social workers, as evident by the person who came forward. So, yes, they had a very cushy childhood following their crime. How can you possibly rehabilitate people when they are allowed to demand things, and walk around freely all the time? Children need to be taught from right and wrong, and by being pushovers they will not learn from their mistakes. There has to be a degree of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 also I don't think that anyone has discussed the fact that whilst people are entitled to reform and that people can change for the better. What should happen to the people that obviously won't reform and their actions after their sentence show that rehabilitation won't work? I believe that if you aren't willing to reform for the better then you are entitled to nothing. I have been converted in regards to the death penalty. I do think now that it's a non option is a decent society. However there needs to be something done to prevent re-offenders ever coming back into the 'real' world. e.g. if you commit murder, serve your time then do it again. You go to jail, maximum security and are never released. Because getting a second chance and doing it again is worse than doing it the first time. EDIT: also they should receive less privaleges than other offenders as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWeedMcGrass Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I don't believe such people are actually capable of changing. The sheer depravity of what they did and the way they did it is shocking , especially at that age!. I still find it hard to swallow , kids committing sadistic torture. They should be incarcerated for life and in far less comfortable circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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