TheDon Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables... Imprisonment for an indeterminate term, with psych-analysis to determine if and when they are fit to be released. Then once they are declared to not be a risk release on license with monitoring by the probation service to ensure that the decision was correct, with them being recalled if it looks like they pose a risk to society. ...oh... wait... Tried that...didnt work...Except it did work, seeing as how he's back inside now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? It's irrelevant, Stuwall. Still no-one is prepared to answer the question, because everyone is trying to be the model citizen and are shit scared as to what their answer would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate Hold on, a couple of pages ago I asked: Is your argument that it should be up to the victim (or victim's relation) to decide upon the punishment? And you said: No, my arguement is that they should be held responsable for the crimes they committed, whatever the punishment. When, in fact, I had read your argument correctly in that you think it should be down to the victim's family to decide upon the punishment. Well, seeing as though you believe that this is the way in which the level of punishment ought to be decided and, I'm assuming, this is what would satisfy your definition of justice, I'd like to ask you one more question: What if the family of a murder victim wanted them to serve no sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables... Imprisonment for an indeterminate term, with psych-analysis to determine if and when they are fit to be released. Then once they are declared to not be a risk release on license with monitoring by the probation service to ensure that the decision was correct, with them being recalled if it looks like they pose a risk to society. ...oh... wait... Tried that...didnt work...Except it did work, seeing as how he's back inside now? How did it work? He re-offended... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? It's irrelevant, Stuwall. Still no-one is prepared to answer the question, because everyone is trying to be the model citizen and are shit scared as to what their answer would be. REGARDLESS of whether I was the parent of the victim or the guilty, I would want the CHILD put away, then released with the chance to live within the law. If they re-offended I would want them put away again. This AFAIK is what has happened and I don't think we can have too many complaints with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Snowy, with all due respect, how often does a crime such as this happen? Rarely, I'd say. Now that I've answered your question, would you care to answer mine (and please have a think about it because I'm not the only one whio has made this point - BOF also made it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate Hold on, a couple of pages ago I asked: Is your argument that it should be up to the victim (or victim's relation) to decide upon the punishment? And you said: No, my arguement is that they should be held responsable for the crimes they committed, whatever the punishment. When, in fact, I had read your argument correctly in that you think it should be down to the victim's family to decide upon the punishment. Well, seeing as though you believe that this is the way in which the level of punishment ought to be decided and, I'm assuming, this is what would satisfy your definition of justice, I'd like to ask you one more question: What if the family of a murder victim wanted them to serve no sentence? It would never happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 How did it work? He re-offended... What's your point? Don't release anyone IN CASE they re-offend? And what was the 2nd offence? Does it even matter in your definition of society? Are you all for the Californian "3-strikes and you're out regardless of what the 3rd strike is" method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno_2004 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Maybe if James had survived the attack he would have grown up to be like Venables. There are some valid points in this thread but I find this pretty horrific. What purpose does this comment serve? There was no evidence to suggest Venables and Thompson had abuse any of the level of what they did to Bulger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Still no-one is prepared to answer the question... My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Imagine if, for some horrible reason, you had a 10 year old (or 8 year old if you wish) child and they comitted this crime of torturing and murdering a young child. Would you think it was fair to hang your 10 year old child? I would have failed as a parent in every sense possible, and would feel that the murder of the young child was my fault. I would probably feel that both me & my child would deserve to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? It's irrelevant, Stuwall. Still no-one is prepared to answer the question, because everyone is trying to be the model citizen and are shit scared as to what their answer would be. REGARDLESS of whether I was the parent of the victim or the guilty, I would want the CHILD put away, then released with the chance to live within the law. If they re-offended I would want them put away again. This AFAIK is what has happened and I don't think we can have too many complaints with it. Well if you would be happy with that punishment if it were your child then thats fine, but i wouldnt, that is where we are different my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCLaura Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 please see Michael Jackson and Steven Gerrard for examples of pre-judged trials. That is a poor reflection on the judiciary system, not against the public/media's involvement in my opinion The evidence should be what is weighed to allow for consistency which is surely what we should expect / hope for, with our criminal system. As also being touched upon in this debate, I understand the point Snowy is making - regardless of whether any of us as individuals agreed with the sentence or not, in the eyes of the law he was punished for what he did. And so it begins again, surely previous will only be taken into consideration if it is a similar crime, or if he somehow breached any of his previous conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? It's irrelevant, Stuwall. Still no-one is prepared to answer the question, because everyone is trying to be the model citizen and are shit scared as to what their answer would be. First up, I've got no **** idea how I would feel in that situation. None of us really do, so stop pushing the question. You might know what you would want done, but just because you see death as the ultimate retaliation (because effectively that is all that your 'justice model' amounts to) don't think that everyone else is being a pussy by not answering the question. It's more complicated that that. It is also irrelevant, so I'm not sure why you seem so keen to pursue it. I'd like to think that I'd be able to make a sensible, rational decision if I was meting out a sentence under these circumstances, but the likelihood is that I could not. Which is precisely why it would be ridiculous for me to be involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Still no-one is prepared to answer the question... My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given. Everyone stop dodging the question, what would you want if it was your child, how would you want them punished? Its a simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 i have answered the question - top post of page 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 Well if you would be happy with that punishment if it were your child then thats fine, but i wouldnt, that is where we are different my friend. I try to see what should happen from a societal point of view, not what an emotionally-invested subjective person wants to see happen for what is solely their own selfish interests. I accept that not everyone is able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Still no-one is prepared to answer the question... My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given. Everyone stop dodging the question, what would you want if it was your child, how would you want them punished? Its a simple question. The answer to it is irrelevant though. If your son did the killing you'd want the sentence to be lenient, if your son was killed you'd want it to be harsh. The real sentence should be somewhere in the middle. The entire point is that emotions shouldn't come in to it. What people want isn't what someone should get. We moved out of the times of mob rule a long time ago. Pitchforks and torches have no place in a justice system. As for "but he reoffended" and? Lots of people reoffend, does that mean the justice system is completely wrong and unless we're 100% certain someone won't reoffend they should never be let out? It would be a pretty crappy system as the only way to be 100% sure is when the person is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 As for "but he reoffended" and? Lots of people reoffend, does that mean the justice system is completely wrong and unless we're 100% certain someone won't reoffend they should never be let out? It would be a pretty crappy system as the only way to be 100% sure is when the person is dead. but at least 50% would be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? But there are some people in this world who, for example, if they had a daughter who was mugged when she was 18, would want her mugger to be killed. Does that make the punishment for muggiong someone being death right, just because the parent of the victim thought it was just? No it doesnt, but we are not talking about a mugging are we mate? So? Again surely that proves that what the parent wants isn't always correct? Just because the crime is different doesn't make what the parent wants to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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