Bulger Killer Returned To Jail [Poll Added]

[Oaks]

I don't believe such people are actually capable of changing. The sheer depravity of what they did and the way they did it is shocking , especially at that age!. I still find it hard to swallow , kids committing sadistic torture.

They should be incarcerated for life and in far less comfortable circumstances.

So you think a we are the same at 10 as we are as an adult?

[MrWeedMcGrass]

I don't believe such people are actually capable of changing. The sheer depravity of what they did and the way they did it is shocking , especially at that age!. I still find it hard to swallow , kids committing sadistic torture.

They should be incarcerated for life and in far less comfortable circumstances.

So you think a we are the same at 10 as we are as an adult?

Let me ask a question as an answer to that question. Humour me.

Do you think we all are radically different as adults from what we were say 20 years ago? Are humans capable of changing their 'core nature' for the lack of a better phrase?

[starsailor9774]

No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm here saying that people seem to underestimate the punishment they got.

If you wished me to say whether I thought the punishment they got was fitting, then I would say yes it was. As 10 year old children they were given sentences that were to last until, at least, their adulthood, after which they were held on strict life licenses. I think that's quite a harsh punishment for a child, and fitting of the crime.

But that's largely because I believe our justice system is pretty good, and also because I don't believe in the death penalty for any one let alone children.

Well obviously the strict life licence business hasn't worked or he wouldn't have ended up in back in prison.

After reading many post's from you on varying subjects, from child abusers to murderers.... I can only take away one thing from them, and that is you are an apologist for those who commit the most heinous crimes.

you try to say it's people like me, who want to bring back hanging who are the problem with society.

Take a long hard look in the mirror, you'll see the real problem staring right back at you.

[snowychap]

I in no way infer we should tolerate this kind of thing, and to suggest I do is frankly insulting, learn to read.

Actually, mate, he's suggesting you're implying and suggesting he's inferring. :winkold:

(For Tony - credit goes to Tom Sharpe )

[snowychap]

Still not a straight answer.

Yes it is.

I apologize that I have taken time to think about the situation and written, in response, a detailed answer to your question.

Please oh please just give me a straight answer as to what you as a parent would WANT as punishment.

What the criminal justice system deemed correct which is the same as saying I wouldn't want to have any input in to the level of their punishment.

I can't believe that you fail to comprehend what I mean by that. :?

[snowychap]

I wonder if I might comment on conditions in a YOI (the one where I work anyway).In an article referenced by snowychap, the author claimed that prisons in Scotland were harsh (or something like that). Where I work there a 3 categories:- Basic, Standard and Enhanced. prisoners can progress to Enhanced based on their behaviour. An Enhanced prisoner has his own TV in his cell and can have Playstation if he can afford it; also his own curtains and bits like that. There are no computers, thus no internet and no Sky tv, as is sometimes suggested in the press.

I think that bloke was specifically talking about adult prisons (though as he was also speaking about them in the context of the Bulger case it might have seemed to have come across wrongly).

A couple of questions (and these are purely out of interest and not to make any point):

What proportion of those young offenders have 'Enhanced' status?

And when you say they can have something if they can afford it, how does that work? Is it if it is bought for them by someone on the outside or if they earn it within the institution?

[starsailor9774]

Still not a straight answer.

Yes it is.

I apologize that I have taken time to think about the situation and written, in response, a detailed answer to your question.

Please oh please just give me a straight answer as to what you as a parent would WANT as punishment.

What the criminal justice system deemed correct which is the same as saying I wouldn't want to have any input in to the level of their punishment.

I can't believe that you fail to comprehend what I mean by that. :?

So if you were in this situation and the judge decided to give a sentence of just 6 months because the offender was only 10 years old, you would sit back and accept it.

[Oaks]

I don't believe such people are actually capable of changing. The sheer depravity of what they did and the way they did it is shocking , especially at that age!. I still find it hard to swallow , kids committing sadistic torture.

They should be incarcerated for life and in far less comfortable circumstances.

So you think a we are the same at 10 as we are as an adult?

Let me ask a question as an answer to that question. Humour me.

Do you think we all are radically different as adults from what we were say 20 years ago? Are humans capable of changing their 'core nature' for the lack of a better phrase?

Yes im a very different person than i was 20 years ago. If you look at the Mary Bell case, she hasn't re-offended and has a family of her own, and she killed 2 younger kids on her own. We change more between the ages of 10 and 21 more than any point of our lifes, to say a 10 year old cannot change to me is ridiculous.

[snowychap]

So if you were in this situation and the judge decided to give a sentence of just 6 months because the offender was only 10 years old, you would sit back and accept it.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself:

I wouldn't want to have any input (other than the input of any other member of society) in to the level of punishment.

Are you wiggy in disguise? :?

[MrWeedMcGrass]

I don't believe such people are actually capable of changing. The sheer depravity of what they did and the way they did it is shocking , especially at that age!. I still find it hard to swallow , kids committing sadistic torture.

They should be incarcerated for life and in far less comfortable circumstances.

So you think a we are the same at 10 as we are as an adult?

Let me ask a question as an answer to that question. Humour me.

Do you think we all are radically different as adults from what we were say 20 years ago? Are humans capable of changing their 'core nature' for the lack of a better phrase?

Yes im a very different person than i was 20 years ago. If you look at the Mary Bell case, she hasn't re-offended and has a family of her own, and she killed 2 younger kids on her own. We change more between the ages of 10 and 21 more than any point of our lifes, to say a 10 year old cannot change to me is ridiculous.

I am not saying they CANNOT change. Change doesn't necessarily equate to reform.There are many more serial offenders who offended as juveniles than the ones who reformed and rejoined society as productive members. The stats are heavily weighed towards the former i.e juveniles are most likely to re offend as adults if let off lightly, and the especially violent ones are especially unpredictable.

Can you give one decent justification as to what motivated these 'kids' to do what they did?I would understand if they murdered for food , money or just plain anger, but this?

[veloman]

Take your point about Adult prisons.

There are c.600 prisoners and I would guess about 1/4 are enhanced - I do have a printout that tells me so will have a look(for my own interest too !)

I believe that they have an allowance from the State but can increase that by attending Education or working within the prison - cleaning for example. There is no cash involved ;it is all credited to an account and this also is used for phone calls from prison phone and extra 'Canteen' on a Friday where they can buy sweets, biscuits,toiletries etc. They can obtain a Playstaion if relations pay for it but it has to be brand new-unopened.

[Oaks]

Can you give one decent justification as to what motivated these 'kids' to do what they did?I would understand if they murdered for food , money or just plain anger, but this?

No, no one can. They were 10. Im sure i beat up a kid younger than me when i was 10. Infact between the ages of 10 and 14 i was a right little rocket polisher. Ive grown up, changed and havent hit anyone for over 15 years. Im sure they are and were treated by doctors and psychiatrists who helped with the decision to release them, its not like they were bungled onto the streets after 8 years.

[snowychap]

There are c.600 prisoners and I would guess about 1/4 are enhanced - I do have a printout that tells me so will have a look(for my own interest too !)

I believe that they have an allowance from the State but can increase that by attending Education or working within the prison - cleaning for example. There is no cash involved ;it is all credited to an account and this also is used for phone calls from prison phone and extra 'Canteen' on a Friday where they can buy sweets, biscuits,toiletries etc. They can obtain a Playstaion if relations pay for it but it has to be brand new-unopened.

Ah, okay. Cheers for the info.

The playstation bit seems not only rather unfair (and before anyone goes on about fairness and people inside, I don't mean in that way) but quite divisive, too.

The allowance that can be increased (by doing the things which you have suggested) provides an incentive scheme for those offenders, it would appear. The playstation, however, seems to be a privilege bought rather than earned.

[MrWeedMcGrass]

Can you give one decent justification as to what motivated these 'kids' to do what they did?I would understand if they murdered for food , money or just plain anger, but this?

No, no one can. They were 10. Im sure i beat up a kid younger than me when i was 10. Infact between the ages of 10 and 14 i was a right little rocket polisher. Ive grown up, changed and havent hit anyone for over 15 years. Im sure they are and were treated by doctors and psychiatrists who helped with the decision to release them, its not like they were bungled onto the streets after 8 years.

We all liked a fight or two when we were kids, its a part of growing up, normal for male children. Now , what they did can in no way be construed as 'normal' part of growing up. I kicked a kid or three back in my day as a school bully doesn't mean a young budding sociopath who likes torture is the same as me.

[veloman]

The playstation bit seems not only rather unfair (and before anyone goes on about fairness and people inside, I don't mean in that way) but quite divisive, too.

I dont really know how they view it(divisive or not) but I know the removal of said Playstation is one of the few punitive measures that exist;beating with a pointed stick seems to be frowned on theses days !

They have to have obtained Enhanced status before they can be eligible for the Playstation I think; notwithstanding available funds.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Can you give one decent justification as to what motivated these 'kids' to do what they did?

Humans are killers, we all have the ability to murder and do horrible things to others. What happens is depending on the society we grow up in we are able to supress the urge to kill in order to live a relatively happy and peaceful life.

For these kids, it's the culmination of failures during their upbringing that has lead them to commit such an act. They did it because 'they could'. Just like you or I or anyone else could, but we know better because we were taught as a youngen not too. These lads weren't, and it's an example to everyone that if you act a shit parent and raise your kid in a shit hole, then more often than not they'll end up doing shit like this because they, after all, are only human.

However I don't for one second believe it's right to release them back into the free society of which they robbed from a two year old child, but neither do i believe it's right to hold them in the same regard as a 43 year old child killer and as such they shouldn't be kept in the same conditions.

The sad thing is a lot of people jump on board the 'they're evil, somethings wrong with them' train of thought without actually seeing this is just a reflection on the fragile society we live in, and how important it is for children to be raised properly.

[snowychap]

The playstation bit seems not only rather unfair (and before anyone goes on about fairness and people inside, I don't mean in that way) but quite divisive, too.

I dont really know how they view it(divisive or not) but I know the removal of said Playstation is one of the few punitive measures that exist;beating with a pointed stick seems to be frowned on theses days !

They have to have obtained Enhanced status before they can be eligible for the Playstation I think; notwithstanding available funds.

That is a point about the punitive measure though it sounds as though that has rather limited scope (in terms of the number against whom it can be used).

I'd hazard a guess it would be seen as divisive (though I am judging it in terms of a poor boy at a private boarding school which may or may not have borne more than a passing remeblance to a YOI ).

[MrWeedMcGrass]

Can you give one decent justification as to what motivated these 'kids' to do what they did?

Humans are killers, we all have the ability to murder and do horrible things to others. What happens is depending on the society we grow up in we are able to supress the urge to kill in order to live a relatively happy and peaceful life.

For these kids, it's the culmination of failures during their upbringing that has lead them to commit such an act. They did it because 'they could'. Just like you or I or anyone else could, but we know better because we were taught as a youngen not too. These lads weren't, and it's an example to everyone that if you act a shit parent and raise your kid in a shit hole, then more often than not they'll end up doing shit like this because they, after all, are only human.

However I don't for one second believe it's right to release them back into the free society of which they robbed from a two year old child, but neither do i believe it's right to hold them in the same regard as a 43 year old child killer and as such they shouldn't be kept in the same conditions.

The sad thing is a lot of people jump on board the 'they're evil, somethings wrong with them' train of thought without actually seeing this is just a reflection on the fragile society we live in, and how important it is for children to be raised properly.

I do agree that parenting plays a vital role in the child's upbringing with respect to having a fair idea of right and wrong. When parents fail , children increasingly lose the ability to differentiate between right and wrong , turning delinquents in the process.

However , even at an animalistic level of existence , there is the concept of 'motivation' which is strictly followed. Tigers don't kill for fun , they kill to eat. Same for any other animal which has the capability to kill. I cannot think

[TheSufferingVilla]

Tigers don't kill for fun , they kill to eat.

Never seen a cat play with a mouse?

[Santa_Rosa]

Tigers don't kill for fun , they kill to eat.

Never seen a cat play with a mouse?

Not without marching them to the nearest gallows within half an hour of the final squeak. After consulting with Mr and Mrs Mouse first of course.