Bulger Killer Returned To Jail [Poll Added]

[ender4]

If your son did the killing you'd want the sentence to be lenient

I don't see why - that would be hypocritical.

people don't have standards anymore, or they think those standards don't apply to themselves.

[snowychap]

What if the family of a murder victim wanted them to serve no sentence?

It would never happen

Really?

How can you be so sure?

There are many examples of families of victims forgiving the killer (though that isn't translated into any effect on the sentence precisely because their foregiveness, or otherwise, doesn't affect the sentence).

Beyond that, if you say that it should be up to the families of victims to decide the level of punishment then you have to allow for the possibility that the level of punishment that they might desire might well be different to the level of punishment that you yourself might desire.

We then have a legal system which would depend upon the whim of the victims' families to decide how society is kept safe from those people whom, objectively, society would think ought to be locked up. Perhaps, even, we'd end up in the kind of situation where people might accept blood money instead of a jail term (or anything else).

[wiggyrichard]

Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem

No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want?

But there are some people in this world who, for example, if they had a daughter who was mugged when she was 18, would want her mugger to be killed. Does that make the punishment for muggiong someone being death right, just because the parent of the victim thought it was just?

No it doesnt, but we are not talking about a mugging are we mate?

So?

Again surely that proves that what the parent wants isn't always correct? Just because the crime is different doesn't make what the parent wants to be correct.

Im not saying it is, im simply saying what i would want if i was the victims parent.

[ender4]

Again surely that proves that what the parent wants isn't always correct? Just because the crime is different doesn't make what the parent wants to be correct.

but no-one was saying that the parent should decide.

What people are saying is that society should reflect right/wrong and have a concept of justice.

not just say it doesn't matter and sweep the horrible mess under the carpet.

[snowychap]

Still no-one is prepared to answer the question...

My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given.

Everyone stop dodging the question, what would you want if it was your child, how would you want them punished? Its a simple question.

I'm not dodging the question.

If you don't understand the answer given, that is your problem.

I'll answer it again, though, in case it helps:

I wouldn't want to have any input in to the level of their punishment.

[snowychap]

Again surely that proves that what the parent wants isn't always correct? Just because the crime is different doesn't make what the parent wants to be correct.

but no-one was saying that the parent should decide.

Did you miss this?

And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate...

[wiggyrichard]

Still no-one is prepared to answer the question...

My answer would be that it wouldn't be for me as a member of the family of a victim to have any input (other than the input as a member of the society whose laws have been transgressed) into the sentence given.

Everyone stop dodging the question, what would you want if it was your child, how would you want them punished? Its a simple question.

I'm not dodging the question.

If you don't understand the answer given, that is your problem.

I'll answer it again, though, in case it helps:

I wouldn't want to have any input in to the level of their punishment.

You are dodging the question Snowy, so your telling me that if god forbid it was your child in question and someone offered you the chance to decide the punishment you would turn it down? Thats bullshit and you know it.

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

[ender4]

Did you miss this?

And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate...

yes i missed that. :oops:

ok, i don't think most people on this thread were saying that! :winkold:

[ender4]

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

he has basically said that he will accept whatever punishment the state gives to him or his child.

maybe the question you should ask is - if you were in the legal system & had been tasked with setting the law for cases like this, what would you set the punishment as?

[Stevo985]

Again surely that proves that what the parent wants isn't always correct? Just because the crime is different doesn't make what the parent wants to be correct.

but no-one was saying that the parent should decide.

What people are saying is that society should reflect right/wrong and have a concept of justice.

not just say it doesn't matter and sweep the horrible mess under the carpet.

Well I'm pretty sure Wiggy did say that.

I agree that society should reflect right or worng, and nowhere did I express an opinion on whether the justice system was appropraite or not, and neither did I agree that the punishment the two lads got was enough, because I don't think it was.

I was simply arguing against the point that hanging 2 10 year old boys was right because it's what the parents of the victim would have wanted.

[wiggyrichard]

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

he has basically said that he will accept whatever punishment the state gives to him or his child.

maybe the question you should ask is - if you were in the legal system & had been tasked with setting the law for cases like this, what would you set the punishment as?

Thats not what im asking, my question is as it sounds.

[wiggyrichard]

I was simply arguing the point that hanging 2 10 year old boys was right because it's what the parents of the victim would have wanted.

So you agree with me then Steve after all that?

[ender4]

ok, let me answer it for you.

If my child was murdered by a 10 year old, i would expect the law to jail for 100 years the murderer AND his parents.

and in a Afghani jail, not a British jail.

If my 10 year old child murdered another child, i would expect to be jailed/hung with my child.

[Stevo985]

I was simply arguing the point that hanging 2 10 year old boys was right because it's what the parents of the victim would have wanted.

So you agree with me then Steve after all that?

Certainly not. Obviously I meant arguing against that point. (above post edited)

[wiggyrichard]

ok, let me answer it for you.

If my child was murdered by a 10 year old, i would expect the law to jail for 100 years the murderer AND his parents.

and in a Afghani jail, not a British jail.

If my 10 year old child murdered another child, i would expect to be jailed/hung with my child.

Finally an answer.

[snowychap]

You are dodging the question Snowy, so your telling me that if god forbid it was your child in question and someone offered you the chance to decide the punishment you would turn it down? Thats bullshit and you know it.

Heres the question again, what would you want as the punishment if it was your child that had been murdered?

No, I am not dodging the question and kindly don't tell me that what I have said I would or wouldn't do is bullshit.

Just because it isn't what you would do, doesn't mean that it isn't what someone else would do.

I think that is part of the problem with your opinion and your answers in this thread.

Most (if not all) of the people who have disagreed with you on this thread, I'd suggest, understand the idea of vengeance and, probably, are not too uncomfortable with people having those feelings. Where they have a problem is with allowing those feelings to dictate the level of punishment of offenders in a criminal justice system or thinking that it is fine for people to act upon those feelings and that these actions would constitute justice.

You, however, don't seem to be able to allow for the possibility that someone else's reaction to this might be different or for the possibility that, even if their feelings mirrored yours, they would be able and prepared to detach themselves from the situation.

I will add a rider to all of this: because we are only talking about future hypothetical situations, none of us know for certain how we would react, we can only give our position as we would think it now. As for that, this does allow for the possibility that were I ever to be in that situation, I might turn out to be a maniac hellbent upon revenge and for the possibility that were you, wiggyrichard, ever to be in that situation, you might decide on a different stance than the one you take now.

What I can say is that, dispassionately and objectively, if I were to be that vengeful person then I would consider myself to be in the wrong.

[snowychap]

Finally an answer.

You've had many an answer, you've just chosen to ignore them.

[snowychap]

Did you miss this?

And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate...

yes i missed that. :oops:

ok, i don't think most people on this thread were saying that! :winkold:

Fair enough.

[ender4]

because we are only talking about future hypothetical situations, none of us know for certain how we would react, we can only give our position as we would think it now. As for that, this does allow for the possibility that were I ever to be in that situation, I might turn out to be a maniac hellbent upon revenge and for the possibility that were you, wiggyrichard, ever to be in that situation, you might decide on a different stance than the one you take now.

thats a good point - we can only guess at what we think we would do.

[Stevo985]

And I'm happy to admit that if it happened to my child I'd want to hunt down the killers and kill them myself.

But that doesn't make it right.