bickster Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 Let me ask you Jon, do you have children? Not entirely sure what Jon having children has to do with the price of fish let alone this but I do have a child and not only that I'm about to go to work. Why am I telling you this? Because my office faces the Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle where the start of this sorry chain of events happened. I have lived and do work in the middle of all of this, where everyone has an opinion on it and mostly all share your sense of moral outrage, the ones interviewed on the telly all last week (in fact the TV vans were parked outside our office for days), most of the people interviewed, I rub shoulders with them on a daily basis. They and you are in my opinion wrong, it's that simple. The world you appear to want to live in is the stuff of dark comic books, ultimately what you all want is a caped avenger to come in and clear the streets of scum, well that can't be allowed to happen, we have a legal system and it needs to be allowed to go through its motions without the hindrance of all the emotive crap that currently surrounds these issues. So i will ask you the Bickster, god forbid, but if it was your child, what punishment would you see fit for the two of them? Just because you think my opinion is wrong doesnt mean i am. The legal system is floored, you, me and everyone who posts on here knows it. Well if you got your way, the legal system certainly would have reached the bottom but if its flawed, it flawed in way that you probably don't think it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Let me ask you Jon, do you have children? Not entirely sure what Jon having children has to do with the price of fish let alone this but I do have a child and not only that I'm about to go to work. Why am I telling you this? Because my office faces the Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle where the start of this sorry chain of events happened. I have lived and do work in the middle of all of this, where everyone has an opinion on it and mostly all share your sense of moral outrage, the ones interviewed on the telly all last week (in fact the TV vans were parked outside our office for days), most of the people interviewed, I rub shoulders with them on a daily basis. They and you are in my opinion wrong, it's that simple. The world you appear to want to live in is the stuff of dark comic books, ultimately what you all want is a caped avenger to come in and clear the streets of scum, well that can't be allowed to happen, we have a legal system and it needs to be allowed to go through its motions without the hindrance of all the emotive crap that currently surrounds these issues. So i will ask you the Bickster, god forbid, but if it was your child, what punishment would you see fit for the two of them? Just because you think my opinion is wrong doesnt mean i am. The legal system is floored, you, me and everyone who posts on here knows it. Well if you got your way, the legal system certainly would have reached the bottom but if its flawed, it flawed in way that you probably don't think it to be. You've forgot to type your answer to my question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate ... Interesting justice system you advocate there fella! The parents/next of kin etc of the victim to decide on method of punishment for offenders ... Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables... FFS its dealing with them, correctly, right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 I suppose the fact that im about to become a parent that thought of this happening to my own scares the living shit out of me. And to answer your question, the parents should decide their fate, what do you think the parents would have liked as their punishment Bof? I think the fact that so many people are incapable of removing emotion from a situation proves that the parents should NEVER decide anyone's fate. Plus that's heading towards an 'eye for an eye' justice model which I don't agree with either. The reason I specifically asked you what should happen was because you changed your opinion depending on which parent you were (victim or guilty) and I thought that was a bit weird that you couldn't (or wouldn't) assess the situation as a neutral person. I think if you accept that up to a point in their life, a child does not fully comprehend what they are doing - no matter how hideous it is, then you can not treat them like an adult no matter how much you want to do so. I happen to think that what has happened up to this point is fair enough. They served their child sentence and were released; given a second chance based on the assumption that as adults they will use a little more common sense than they might have as children. If that faith is subsequently found to be misplaced then that becomes more serious. If after release they then go and do something else wrong (especially relating to children) then you come down on them far harder than you would a first-time adult offender. But as I think this thread has established, we don't actually know what this adult has done 2nd time around. All speculation does is whip the mob into a frenzy to the point where anyone who offers anything other than a blood-thirsty solution is seen as some kind of sympathiser. The mob, as an animal, is a very stupid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, let me turn the "imagine if it was your child" argument back on yourself. Imagine if, for some horrible reason, you had a 10 year old (or 8 year old if you wish) child and they comitted this crime of torturing and murdering a young child. Would you think it was fair to hang your 10 year old child? Obviously not, but im sure the parents of the victim would. Does that not go at least someway to showing that just because the parents of the child would want his killer's hanged, that it may not necessarily be the right thing to do? What punishment would you propose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 Let me ask you Jon, do you have children? Not entirely sure what Jon having children has to do with the price of fish let alone this but I do have a child and not only that I'm about to go to work. Why am I telling you this? Because my office faces the Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle where the start of this sorry chain of events happened. I have lived and do work in the middle of all of this, where everyone has an opinion on it and mostly all share your sense of moral outrage, the ones interviewed on the telly all last week (in fact the TV vans were parked outside our office for days), most of the people interviewed, I rub shoulders with them on a daily basis. They and you are in my opinion wrong, it's that simple. The world you appear to want to live in is the stuff of dark comic books, ultimately what you all want is a caped avenger to come in and clear the streets of scum, well that can't be allowed to happen, we have a legal system and it needs to be allowed to go through its motions without the hindrance of all the emotive crap that currently surrounds these issues. So i will ask you the Bickster, god forbid, but if it was your child, what punishment would you see fit for the two of them? Just because you think my opinion is wrong doesnt mean i am. The legal system is floored, you, me and everyone who posts on here knows it. Well if you got your way, the legal system certainly would have reached the bottom but if its flawed, it flawed in way that you probably don't think it to be. You've forgot to type your answer to my question... No I chose to ignore it because in my opinion it's an idiotic question that doesn't require an answer as in that terrible eventuality it wouldn't be up to me anyway, nor should it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 do beg to differ that the 'emotive crap' you call it will have any effect on his trial in regards to the courts verdict - maybe the public opinion will be tainted or altered, however I have no doubt the legal system will come to it's 'proper conclusion' whether she and/or the media get involved or not - I'd certainly like to think so anyway. Justice should be exactly that - for whatever crime he may or may not have commited on this occasion. please see Michael Jackson and Steven Gerrard for examples of pre-judged trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Let me ask you Jon, do you have children? Not entirely sure what Jon having children has to do with the price of fish let alone this but I do have a child and not only that I'm about to go to work. Why am I telling you this? Because my office faces the Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle where the start of this sorry chain of events happened. I have lived and do work in the middle of all of this, where everyone has an opinion on it and mostly all share your sense of moral outrage, the ones interviewed on the telly all last week (in fact the TV vans were parked outside our office for days), most of the people interviewed, I rub shoulders with them on a daily basis. They and you are in my opinion wrong, it's that simple. The world you appear to want to live in is the stuff of dark comic books, ultimately what you all want is a caped avenger to come in and clear the streets of scum, well that can't be allowed to happen, we have a legal system and it needs to be allowed to go through its motions without the hindrance of all the emotive crap that currently surrounds these issues. So i will ask you the Bickster, god forbid, but if it was your child, what punishment would you see fit for the two of them? Just because you think my opinion is wrong doesnt mean i am. The legal system is floored, you, me and everyone who posts on here knows it. Well if you got your way, the legal system certainly would have reached the bottom but if its flawed, it flawed in way that you probably don't think it to be. You've forgot to type your answer to my question... No I chose to ignore it because in my opinion it's an idiotic question that doesn't require an answer as in that terrible eventuality it wouldn't be up to me anyway, nor should it Dont shy away from it, i answered you, or are you scared of what your answer will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, let me turn the "imagine if it was your child" argument back on yourself. Imagine if, for some horrible reason, you had a 10 year old (or 8 year old if you wish) child and they comitted this crime of torturing and murdering a young child. Would you think it was fair to hang your 10 year old child? Obviously not, but im sure the parents of the victim would. Does that not go at least someway to showing that just because the parents of the child would want his killer's hanged, that it may not necessarily be the right thing to do? What punishment would you propose? It's irrelevant what I'd propose. But fwiw I'd say life in prison, or at least a long period in prison followed by incredibly strict surveillance if they ever were released back into the population. But it's a moot point. The point I was making was "if it was your kid" surely doesn't apply because you've just said it wouldn't be fair to put your child to death. Doesn't that prove the fact that emotions of the parents will give a verdict that isn't correct? I'm not commenting on the justice system. The fact it might be flawed is another issue. Just becaue it may be flawed doesn't mean the parents should decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 8, 2010 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Let me ask you Jon, do you have children? Not entirely sure what Jon having children has to do with the price of fish let alone this but I do have a child and not only that I'm about to go to work. Why am I telling you this? Because my office faces the Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle where the start of this sorry chain of events happened. I have lived and do work in the middle of all of this, where everyone has an opinion on it and mostly all share your sense of moral outrage, the ones interviewed on the telly all last week (in fact the TV vans were parked outside our office for days), most of the people interviewed, I rub shoulders with them on a daily basis. They and you are in my opinion wrong, it's that simple. The world you appear to want to live in is the stuff of dark comic books, ultimately what you all want is a caped avenger to come in and clear the streets of scum, well that can't be allowed to happen, we have a legal system and it needs to be allowed to go through its motions without the hindrance of all the emotive crap that currently surrounds these issues. So i will ask you the Bickster, god forbid, but if it was your child, what punishment would you see fit for the two of them? Just because you think my opinion is wrong doesnt mean i am. The legal system is floored, you, me and everyone who posts on here knows it. Well if you got your way, the legal system certainly would have reached the bottom but if its flawed, it flawed in way that you probably don't think it to be. You've forgot to type your answer to my question... No I chose to ignore it because in my opinion it's an idiotic question that doesn't require an answer as in that terrible eventuality it wouldn't be up to me anyway, nor should it Dont shy away from it, i answered you, or are you scared of what your answer will be? He's given you the answer that is actually relevant to the debate. I have to say that if rationality and reason are indeed the facets that distinguish us from animals then there are a lot of beasts on this board and in this country. Think through, for a minute, a nationwide system where the victim of a crime can decide the criminals punishment. It's utterly, utterly absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Your last question, **** smoking, drinking, getting married and stopping out late... Why? Because you cannot get your head around the point of the question? The point of the question is how society elects to treat minors. If you are going to treat them on the same level as adults (with the same level of legal responsibility for their actions) then surely you need to give them the same legal rights as adults. Why don't we give 10 year olds (or minors of whatever age who pass your 'understanding' test) the legal right to do what any adult is legally allow to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables... Imprisonment for an indeterminate term, with psych-analysis to determine if and when they are fit to be released. Then once they are declared to not be a risk release on license with monitoring by the probation service to ensure that the decision was correct, with them being recalled if it looks like they pose a risk to society. ...oh... wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? It's irrelevant, Stuwall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 8, 2010 VT Supporter Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? But there are some people in this world who, for example, if they had a daughter who was mugged when she was 18, would want her mugger to be killed. Does that make the punishment for muggiong someone being death right, just because the parent of the victim thought it was just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Well, that's a different subject all together, but the mere fact the laws exist and we are aware of them, in my opinion, is an example of how much impact you can have when you 'get involved' and why I think it's relevant that Mrs Fergus has been asked to pass comment on the current situation. It's not a different subject; it is intricately linked with whether victims and/or their families ought to so involved with things (beyond the actual process of investigation and prosecution). As you say those laws are an example of how much impact people can have when getting involved and, if the actual effect is questionable (or, possibly, detrimental), then perhaps it is an example of why this should not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Your last question, **** smoking, drinking, getting married and stopping out late... Why? Because you cannot get your head around the point of the question? The point of the question is how society elects to treat minors. If you are going to treat them on the same level as adults (with the same level of legal responsibility for their actions) then surely you need to give them the same legal rights as adults. Why don't we give 10 year olds (or minors of whatever age who pass your 'understanding' test) the legal right to do what any adult is legally allow to do? Snowy, with all due respect, how often does a crime such as this happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Well instead of just mocking my posts, lets hear what your justice system would be to deal with Thompson and Venables... Imprisonment for an indeterminate term, with psych-analysis to determine if and when they are fit to be released. Then once they are declared to not be a risk release on license with monitoring by the probation service to ensure that the decision was correct, with them being recalled if it looks like they pose a risk to society. ...oh... wait... Tried that...didnt work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Wiggy, I gave you my answer, that is my answer, you chose not to accept it as valid, that really is your problem No you havent Bickster, answer me now in a straight simple answer, if it was you child what punishment would you want? But there are some people in this world who, for example, if they had a daughter who was mugged when she was 18, would want her mugger to be killed. Does that make the punishment for muggiong someone being death right, just because the parent of the victim thought it was just? No it doesnt, but we are not talking about a mugging are we mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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